Approaches to BDSM Moderator: Sleek Sleek says: OK ... so a brief rundown on how the discussion is going to work ... Sleek says: And then I'll say my piece on the subject ... Sleek says: Which pretty much fulfills the first part. Sleek says: Once the intro is over ... Sleek says: Yes, to just jumping in and talking when you have a question/opinion to share Sleek says: No to emotes and other non-pertinent things Sleek says: Intro -wise ... Sleek says: There is an approach to BDSM ... Sleek says: Not the prevalent approach here at IronRose ... Sleek says: But considered no less legitimate in certain circles ... Sleek says: Which basically looks at the Dom/me's power as absolute .. Sleek says: From the moment there is any interchange between Dom and sub ... Sleek says: The sub cannot determine any aspect of the development of this interchange Sleek says: What it comes down to ... Sleek says: Is that there is no negotiation stage ... Sleek says: The sub does NOT have the opportunity to define his/her limits ... Sleek says: In essence, the sub has no limits ... Sleek says: Except those the Dom imposes of their own volition ... Sleek says: There is no safe-word ... Sleek says: The sub is entirely in the hands of the Dom/me. Sleek says: There is no point where there is equal-to-equal interchange ... Sleek says: The sub gives up ALL control of their destiny ... Sleek says: Be it for as long as the scene goes on ... Sleek says: For as long as there is any relationship between the Dom/me and sub .. Sleek says: Or for a lifetime ... Sleek says: The sub never has an option to draw any lines in the sand. Sleek says: This, as you might guess from the tone of the way I have presented it ... Sleek says: Is NOT my approach to BDSM. Sleek says: But it is popular in some very respected circles ... Sleek says: So I have decided to present it here for discussion ... Sleek says: And I will do my best to answer questions about it ... Sleek says: Even play Devil's Advocate and defend it ... Sleek says: Because I think it is important that we look at what we believe and why we have chosen the paths we have chosen ... Sleek says: In light of other paths as well as in light of our own decisions. Sleek says: So right about now ... Fairlady asks: sleek are you talking about bdsm rl circles? Sleek exclaims: Anyone who has a question ... Go Fairlady! Sleek says: Yes, I am talking about rl and cyber. Sleek says: Both. Sleek says: That woman has perfect timing. Amanda asks: ? Sleek asks: Amanda? Amanda says: this is a comment more than a question... Sleek says: Comments are good too. Amanda asks: to give absolute power like that, you would have to have absolute trust in the person. i dont know that that much trust is really possible...is that kind of relationship ever really more than a game? Amanda says: i would think the relationships would have to be short-term, almost by definition Sleek says: Well, there are ppl who claim to live their real life bdsm relationships according to these premises, Amanda ... Sleek says: One example is a web page listed in .show resources ... Amanda says: i bet its not that absolute all the time Sleek says: Where a Dom/sub team talk about their relationship ... Sleek says: And both state that if the sub had a safeword, they feel it would cheapen her submission ... Sleek says: Essentailly negate it of anything significant ... Sleek says: Ditto for negotiation or limits. Fairlady says: i have to dissagree ....i am sub not doormat Sleek says: I also disagree in principle Fairlady ... Fairlady says: if i dont feel i can say to a dom ...sorry ...enuff Winder says: I still think it depends on the individual relationship between the sub/dom Fairlady says: i would not play Amanda nods, i think ive read that page.....but they have a sharing relationship, regarless of how they chose to label it...he respects her limits, by his choice...and therefore it negates the basic principle Shasha says: the two ppl would have to be pretty intune to agree to something like that Sleek says: Yes, Shasha ... that is another question I ask ... Amanda says: its one thing for a sub to chose to give up control...another for a dom to say he/she has no choice but to give it up Winder says: I agree Amanda Sleek says: I mean ... yes ... after a relatively long relationship with the Dom I am involved with nowwe are enough in tune for me to trust him completely ... Amanda nods, trust comes with time Sleek asks: But how do you START a relationship that in tune to each other's needs? Shasha says: there are some Doms that I could do that with, because their taste and limits are the same as mine. but others Amanda exclaims: exactly! thats why i say it almost has to be a game, if its that absolute from the get-go Shasha says: that would be hard to start it that way Sleek says: Well, I guess this school of thought leaves you chopice to begin or not begin the relationship ... Shasha says: not with out observing one another or talking a lot before hand Sirper says: m Winder asks: ? Shasha asks: does the sub have any right to say how long the relationship last? Sleek says: But once it has begun, the sub has no points of control of any kind. Amanda says: i have met doms that demand instant respect....it always pisses me off because they have done thing to show that they deserve that respect...any wannabe can call himself a dom Fairlady says: some times you will find that your not compatiable with the dom...you need tthat taling stage first Fairlady says: re.v Winder asks: Excuse me, but aren't most sub/dom relationships suppose to build over time? Amanda says: they deepen over time certainly Sleek says: Well, yes, Winder ... Dom/sub relationships develop ... Sleek says: Any relationship between two ppl develops over time ... Winder says: I certainly wouldn't want to walk in and have a stranger serving me Winder says: I don't care who it was Sleek says: Any two ppl interacting in any way develop their interaction over time ... Sleek says: Even teh guy at the corner grocery ... Winder says: I thought the whole idea was to grow to know what each others needs are Sleek says: My relationship with him has developed over time in a sense. Amanda asks: its a lovely picture, to trust someone so much that you give up ALL control....but i still question if its possible. as long as that dom is the person you think he is, sure you will submit...but if he turns into an asshole, what sub is going to stay? Sleek says: I guess my personal beef with this approach is that the Dom is essentially off the hook from ever growing to know anything about the subs needs Amanda says: and yet in this definition, the sub would have no choice but to stay, regardless of what a jerk the dom/me chooses to be over time...thats destructive and unrealistic Amanda nods, very good point sleek....the whole concept sounds like some guys pipedream Sleek says: I guess that if things are really bad for the sub, there is always the complete out. Amanda says: but in this ideal, there is no out...the sub has given up ALL control Sleek says: But htere is no middle ground in this scenario ... If you really like the Dom and want to continue to submit ... you cannot at any point say 'x' is a bad trigger for me Shasha says: many believe the sub's only need is to serve the Dom Winder asks: then if the dom is acting like that is is nothing more than a power trip anyway , right? Sleek says: Well ... this approach says it is ALL about power. And power is something the Dom has all of, and teh sub has none of ... at any stage. Fairlady asks: doen't the sub have the right to have her/his needs fulfilled? Amanda says: ok, i see what you are saying sleek....that the sub, if they want to be with this all-powerful dom, has to give up all control....one balk, and the sub is out. what a heart-warming relationship Sleek says: According to the school of thought ... the true sub's only need is to fulfill the needs of the Dom Fairlady says: i mean i have a deep need to serve but if i dotn get what i need in return...it doent work for him o r me Sleek agrees with Fairlady, at least for me personally. Amanda asks: you can have a need to fulfill the needs of the dom, but you have to respect the dom. how can you respect someone who doesnt respect you? Sleek asks: Who told you you bought into this respect, Amanda? Sleek grins Amanda grins at sleek Sleek says: No, seriously ... Amanda says: im not sure how you mean that.... Sleek says: The Dom's respect for the sub's gift of submission is inherent int he approach, or the whole thing cannot work . Sleek says: But the theory is that the submission must be non-conditional , or it is not complete submission. Sleek says: And incomplete submission of any kind is not submission at all. Amanda says: thats unrealistic tho Sleek says: I agree Amanda ... Fairlady says: very unrealistic Sleek says: And that is possibly the key reason I think the approach is worth thinking about ... Amanda asks: and really arrogent as well....how can any dom think that they have the knowledge to run someone else's life for them? Sirper asks: ? Amanda says: without any input at all from the person in question Sleek says: Because realistic is key. Sleek asks: What can a Dom legitimately expect of a sub? Sleek asks: Is it reasonable/ realistic to expect forms of submission the sub doesn't ahve in them to give? Amanda says: no, not in my opinion Fairlady says: i agree amanda Sirper asks: ? Sleek asks: And how, wihtout any negotiation stage or safeword or defined limits, is the Dom supposed to know exactly what the sub has or doesn't have to give? Amanda says: exactly Sleek says: I mean, with all the adoration we can give to Dominants, theya re not omniscient. Amanda says: thats a particularly nasy assumption to make also...that if the sub isnt capable of this complete submission, that they are not a 'real sub' Sleek says: But the point here would be ... Sleek says: exactly Amanda ... the point would be ... if it isn't complete, it isn't submission. Sirper says: ok well I think what we are saying here is its not froyou this type of DOM but it maybe for another sub and it her or his choice in becoming this DOm's sub I wouldnt want a sub like that myself but Sleek says: Well yes, Sirper ... Sirper says: it not far to put your onw feeling in saying if this is corect or not Fairlady says: i dont think you can define a "true sub" Sirper says: its not for you but it maybe for jill Sleek says: I said a number of times at the start of this discussion taht this is considered a legitimate BDSM school of thought, just not the one I adhere to Sirper says: I think a sub like that would be dangeours and boring Sirper says: but you seem to be putting it down Sirper says: and everyone here seem very judgemental of it Sleek says: I am trying not to put it down, and I apologize if it sounds like I'm slamming it. Sirper says: its really dose the sub want this type of realtionship Sleek says: I did say I would do my best to play Devil's Advocate here and defend the approach and I haven't managed to do that. Domaris says: I agree, Sirper.. *nods* A sub who doesn't want that sort of Dom/me.. won't -serve- that kind of Dom/me.. but there are those who want to.. Sirper says: do you think it need defending Amanda says: its hard not to be judgemental sirper, it pushes buttons its that idea that you are not a true sub if you dont submit fully....i dont know about anyone else, but it angers me. it implys that im not a true sub Sirper says: lets put it this way ok Sleek says: I think it is a minority approach here at IR ... Sirper says: your right Fairlady says: this is not aimed at any one Amanda says: i Sirper says: some sub a minority like scat Sleek says: So it needs to be presented Amanda says: i ran into one dom like that here...he doesnt come around much anymore Sirper says: is that to say they cant do it because it disuse me Sirper says: or pushes a boton inme annabel exits quietly. Sleek says: No, the IR appraoch is live and let live on all fronts ... Sirper says: so oyu say hey feeloow your not for me Sirper says: right Sleek says: And I felt that part of letting live was presenting this approach .. Sirper says: I would hate to try and figuar out a sub limits Sleek says: But I also feel it begs a number of extremely important questions .. Sirper says: ok Sleek says: In this case, you DON'T figure out a sub's limits. There are no limits. Sirper says: a sub needs to knoww hat she or he is gettinginto Sleek says: No, a sub doesn't need to know what they are getting into. Sirper says: well Sleek you may need to have her around the next moring Sleek says: A sub needs to provide the Dom/me with what THEY want to get into. Fairlady says: oh yes they do sleek Sirper says: sure they do Amanda says: its so one-sided...its a pipe-dream Sirper says: but if its fine with the sub then what doyou care amanda Sleek says: Only if you assume the sub has a side Amanda. Domaris says: No, it's not a pipe-dream, Amanda.. Lackleder wanders in. Sirper says: oh by the waty she is not a sub she is a slave Sleek says: The assumption I'm presenting is that the sub's side does not include needs beyond serving the Dom. Amanda says: oh im not putting people involved in that kind of relationship down sirper, dont misunderstand me...i just doubt, highly, that its as one-sided as they claim. Sleek says: No, Sirper ... the difference between sub and slave could be a shole other discussion .. Sleek says: But being a slave is not inherent inthe approach. Sirper says: a sub has limits a slave has none Sirper says: your right but one of them is she or he has no limits Sleek says: Well, they don't negate caring for hte sub, Amanda. Serenite wanders in. Sirper says: the DOM/ME may love the slave very much Sirper says: maybe even more than a sub dom Sleek says: The Dom can and generally does take into account Sleek says: that the sub is a person, and a very important person at that. Sleek says: But the Dom's needs, whatever they may be ... are the real goal of the Dom and the sub. Sleek asks: More thoughts? Sleek asks: Questions on how this sort of relationship would work? Sirper says: do oyu know of any rl relationships like this Sleek says: OK ... for those of you whose interest was piqued by this discussion ... Amanda lags Sleek says: I HIGHLY recommend reading the web page labeled Submissive Speech in .show resources Amanda says: it seems to me the relationship cant work..UNLESS the dom is claiming a right that both parties know he would never exercise Sleek says: I don't know of any, but you can read about one at that web site, Sirper. Sirper says: ok Sirper says: Amanda your looking at it throuygh your glasses Amanda says: the speech said some good things about part-time submissives...but i didnt agree with all of it certainly Sleek says: My friends tend to have similar world views to mine ... and I already said this view isn't mine. Sleek smiles at Amanda ... it said some VERY good stuff. Sleek says: It also says a lot of things I found impossible to swallow, personally. Amanda nods Sirper says: well I need to teach most sub what limits are Domaris says: I own a RL slave with no limits, Sirper, though not a 24/7 thing, so it's somewhat less intense tha Sleek's example here.. Sirper says: ok what is a 24/7 Sleek says: Well, this doesn't have to be a 24/7 thing ... Sirper says: wait Sleek says: 24 hours seven days a week Domaris says: oh,, as in 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.. Sirper says: oook Sirper says: I have been hearing that allthe time lately Sleek says: If the Dom's needs are not for a 24/7 thing ... Amanda says: there is a differnce between having no limits and being ALLOWED no limits Sirper says: and a Sleek says: But the bottom line is the Dom's needs. Domaris nods.. good point, Amanda.. Sleek says: touche' amanda Sirper says: I dont think so Amnad dooyu know many rl dom's Sirper says: Amanda Amanda asks: a few yes....why? Sleek asks: And of course ... at this point I wou,ld raise the question of how do you GET to no limits? Sirper says: because I have been with a lot lately and I find even the ones 24/7 are just as intersted in there subs as anyother one Amanda says: through trust...ive been there. becuase i trusted him so much that i knew he would never do anything to harm me...i didnt need limits Sirper says: maybe alot more Sleek says: I mean ... even within the framework of having no limits, there is "has no li mits with current trusted partner" ... Sleek says: And "Never has any limits with any partner" Amanda nods, big difference. he is the ONLY man ive ever been able to say that of Sirper says: and doyoureally think ladies if you have limits and your tied up and the dom is beating you and you say stop he will Sirper says: or she Fairlady exclaims: i do sirper!! Amanda says: damn right....bc if i didnt think that, i wouldnt be there Fairlady says: exactly amanda Sleek says: If I didn't think he would stop at a safeword, Sirper, I wouldn't give up the control by being tied up Sirper says: well let me tell you it dosent always work like that Sleek says: No it doesn't, Sirper ... but the best way to avoid an unpleasant situation like that ... Sirper says: I was with a domme last night who is a friends she told me she let a man dom her Sirper says: and he didnt stop not a re d or stop or anything elesand she beeen in the sceen for 30 years Sirper says: and there are DOMME who aee the same annabel wanders in. Sleek says: Is the negotiation and trust-building process inherent in ALLOWING the sub limits and needs. Amanda says: then he was a jerk not a dom....a wannabe Sirper says: sure it is I am just saying it dosent always work Sleek says: And equal-to-equal exchange concerning what the needs of BOTH parties are before the scene begins. Sleek says: Well, Sirper ... it is a horrible situation ... Sleek says: But I generally feel that the failure when teh safeword doesn't work ... Sirper says: its alltrue but when all is said and done your tied and he in controle so oyu better trust him or her Sleek says: Actually occurred a long time before they got to needing the safeword. Sirper says: so your in his controle or hers Sirper says: every sub hopes that it will work Sleek says: Yes. And trusting instantaneously can have just hte price you mention Sirper. Sirper says: and in both case the sub must trust the master or mistresss Sirper says: its really very diffrent is it Sleek says: Yes, Sirper ... the question is at what point does the sub give up what amount of control ... Sleek says: What point does the sub trust the Dom Sirper says: you better trust him a lot if your going to let him/her tie you up Sirper says: or give over complete controle of your life Fairlady says: when he as proven to me he will respect me and my limits Amanda says: a lot of it is instinct...becuase you dont really KNOW until you are there...but self-protection is strong, i dont think people trust that easily Sleek says: Because we all know that if we take the step too early ... there may be aprice later on. Amanda says: exactly Winder wanders in. Sirper says: so dose the 24/7 Sleek nods ... self-preservation is probaly key to what keeps subs out of the wrong scenes .... Sirper says: lots get deep inot wronge scenes Sirper says: men too Sleek says: Yes, Sirper and that is another discussion. Sleek asks: Are there any more comments or question on the topic at hand? Sleek asks: On the approach to BDSM that I brought up here tonight? Sleek says: Going once ... Sleek says: Going twice ... Sleek says: OK ... thanks for coming ... Shasha says: thank you Sleek Sleek says: Thanks for sharing your two cents worth ... Sirper says: thanks sleek it was very good Domaris applauds.. thanks, Sleek. Sirper exits quietly. Sleek says: And I really do recommend reading that web page. Sleek smiles Fairlady says: thanks sleek Fairlady exits quietly. Amanda says: well done sleek its an interesting subject...even if it does push my buttons Winder says: thanks Winder exits quietly. Sleek smiles at Amanda .. it pushes ALL of my buttons Amanda ... Sleek says: But I thought it was worth throwing out ont he floor here to wrangle with a bit. Amanda nods Sleek says: It addresses some interesting issues Shasha nods Shasha says: that is does Amanda says: and i loved the part in the web page where she talked about the subs who are so formal and 'submissive' one minute and running rampant the next Sleek asks: Like does a sub retain some form of control by establishing a safeword? Sleek giggle s... my favorite part of her speech is about trying it real life ... Amanda says: i think they do....i didnt have a safeword with my old Master, i truely didnt feel i needed one. but i would never submit to anyone again without one Amanda grins, she made a LOT of good points Sleek asks: Like what do you do when your knees crack just as you kneel? Amanda laughs!! Shasha says: I will have to go and read it again.