Joiners Discussion
August, 2001 with Rebecca

Rebecca writes on the message board: Tonight's discussion is about Joiners. It isn't about Poly r/ships. While Poly r/ships can emerge...that is not the focus tonight. It is also not about luring your reluctant partner into new ideas...again, while important, it is not tonight's focus.
Rebecca looks at her watch.
Rebecca smiles
Rebecca says: I believe in promptness. :)
Prophet nods.. as do I
Rebecca exclaims: Welcome!
Rebecca says: Tonight, we are discussing Joiners.
Rebecca says: Joiners are people who bascially join in a scene with an established couple.
Rebecca says: There are many different levels of joining.
Rebecca says: Basically, if a top asks someone to "watch their bottom" while they run across the room, that is one example of joining...but not at a very involved level.
Rebecca says: Once a friend asked us to watch her slave. He was mummified in plastic wrap. She told us which problems to watch for and ran to powder her lovely dommish nose...
Rebecca says: Effectively we were involved in her scene at that point. However when she reappeared, that ended that.
Prophet smiles
Rebecca says: On the flip side, a joiner can be someone who regularly plays with the couple and is very involved.
Rebecca says: For example, one of our friends trained in weight training in another top's basement. Her master told the weight trainer what he wanted. She went several times a week and it lasted for several years. She followed the trainer's directives and then would work out with both her master and her weight trainer. This is another type of joiner. My point is the level of joining can vary greatly.
Rebecca asks: Any questions so far?
Rebecca says: Okay...
Rebecca says: Joiners as we said before can be a one night or moment thing. Or it can be a series of one night or moment things with the same person. Or it can even be a regular activity with the same person.
Rebecca asks: If a couple is interested in involving others, the first question to ask each other is WHY?
Rebecca says: There are lots of reasons that people do it. It is important to know why you are doing it should you decide to give it a try.
Rebecca says: Some people do it for spice - just to add variety into their play. Others will do it to fill a void or need.
Rebecca says: For example, I like electrical play. Prophet doesn't.
Rebecca says: If I *had* to be zapped and just couldn't live without it, we would need another person to do that for me. Another example might be a voyeuristic need or an exhibitionist need.
Rebecca says: I'm sure everyone here can think of personal needs or voids that would include another person.
Rebecca smiles
Rebecca says: The next reason is to add a new dimension to a friendship or to simply get closer to someone.
Rebecca asks: Why invite a friend to dinner if you are an established couple?
Rebecca says: Or invite them to your bowling game.
Rebecca says: For some...it is simply an extension to normal friendship things.
Rebecca takes a drink of water.
Rebecca asks: Any questions/comments/insights so far?
Prophet thinks you are doing wonderfully thus far
Rebecca says: Thanks, but it *is* a discussion. :)
Prophet says: They are waiting for you to break out the bag o stars.
Rebecca laughs.
Rebecca says: Okay...
Rebecca says: So you know what it is...and why you are doing it. I'm sure that people have other reasons, but those are the one's I hear about most often.
Rebecca asks: So how does a couple start?
Rebecca says: In our relationship, most people are surprised to learn that I'm the person that normally brings up adding another person.
Prophet says: Go forth and bring me that one!
Rebecca looks at Prophet.
Rebecca says: Yeah, I wish.
Rebecca grumbles.
Prophet laughs
Rebecca says: Anyway.
Rebecca says: The couple should talk before hand and discuss why they wish to include a certain person.
Rebecca says: They should know what it is they are looking for in the scene.
Rebecca says: Also, if you ever talk to a couple about playing with them as the joiner, give them a chance to discuss it between themselves. And you should also know what you are seeking.
Rebecca says: Things to discuss.
Rebecca asks: No matter whether you are the joiner or a part of the couple, there are things you need to consider. For example, how long of a scene are you wanting to have? What types of activities do you want to do?
Rebecca says: If you are the joiner, are you REALLY okay seeing the couple together...or if you are one of the couple, seeing your partner being given attention by someone else?
Rebecca asks: Will sexual contact be involved?
Rebecca says: KNOW what is going to be involved...and consider it carefully.
Rebecca says: It's hard to play when everyone has different expectations and wants/needs.
Rebecca says: As a joiner, be very sure you understand your role.
Mari nods
Rebecca says: As a couple, be very very sure that you understand your limits. After all, the other person is someone you care about and you need to know what you are and are not comfortable with prior to talking to them. No one wants to be hurt.
Rebecca says: Personally, I love watching my master interact with other people.
Rebecca says: It's fun for me to see them react to him.
Rebecca shrugs.
Prophet says: And I do enjoy watching rebecca flirt.. she is good at it
Rebecca says: On a side note, I once had a friend come over while I was gone for a week so my master would have someone around.
Rebecca says: She knew what to expect.
Rebecca says: She knew what her role was.
Rebecca says: My mistake was not talking about it with him....
Rebecca grins. I wanted it to be a surprise...and well, it was!
Prophet grumbles.
edana grins.
Mari giggles.
Rebecca doesn't recommend surprising one's master or mistress this way, and she may discuss things like this at another discussion.
Rebecca giggles
Rebecca asks: Any questions?
edana ponders this.
Rebecca waits.
Rebecca asks: So...you guys did look at that word "discussion" ...right?
Rebecca smiles
Rebecca flips her notes to the next page.
Annie grins
Mari is trying to play catch up.
Rebecca asks: Okay....so we have our reasons, selected our person, ensured that everyone is on the same page with expectations, what is next?
Rebecca smiles. I have gold stars again!
Rebecca asks: No guesses? Geesh.
Rebecca says: Okay.
Prophet saw the notes.
Annie says: well, I guess you have to ask them...
edana says: I missed the first part
Rebecca exclaims: YES!
Rebecca sticks a good star on Annie.
Rebecca says: You gotta talk to them.
Rebecca says: And when you do, let them know what it is that you are seeking.
Prophet says: and be honest
Rebecca says: Hopefully you are talking to someone who understands bdsm, etc.
Rebecca says: For this discussion, we are not going to try to convert your kid's soccer coach to your lifestyle.
Rebecca says: Again...another discussion. :)
Rebecca says: We are going to assume that the other person is also into the
scene.
Rebecca says: So you talk with them and you need to be honest.
Prophet says: With both the questions and answers.
Rebecca nods.
Rebecca says: Even if you know they won't like the answer.
Prophet nods again.
Prophet says: And for the record, twirling your hair is not an answer
Rebecca says: We had a friend approach us and ask to do a scene.
Rebecca says: She wanted an on-going thing.
Rebecca says: It was very hard on her to hear that we would give it a try and take it from there.
Rebecca says: But...better lose a play experience than lose a friend.
Rebecca says: Once the contact is made, you have to negotiate things.
Prophet asks: Doesn't that sound familiar?
Rebecca says: Even if the joiner scene is only going to happen for a moment, take a moment to talk about it.
Rebecca says: Prophet won a scene at a play party with a friend. She said, "I LIKE FLOGGERS." He replied, "I like paddles."
Rebecca says: She said, "Oh...well...hmmmm...okay...I've never been paddled...I can tell you that if you touch my lower back, you die. I mean touch my back in any way cause I can't stand for anything to touch it."
Rebecca laughs.
Prophet smiles
Rebecca says: It was a very short, but HIGHLY informative, negotiation.
Rebecca says: One scene...short, sweet, and memorable for both.
Rebecca pauses.
Rebecca says: She has an issue with her lower back.
Rebecca says: Had she not have told him, I think it would have turned out very differently because Prophet touches a lot when he paddles.
Rebecca says: On the other hand, we have negotiated scenes that have taken place over weekends.
Rebecca says: Needless to say, that is going to take a lot more negotiation.
Prophet says: Some we have spent weekends negotiating depending on the level of play.
Rebecca smiles.
Rebecca asks: Any questions yet?
Mari says: no
Rebecca says: Okay.
Rebecca says: Chime in should any questions arise.
Mari smiles
Prophet says: And if you do you get a gold star
Rebecca says: One thing everyone should discuss is safety.
Rebecca says: Prophet and I play together all the time, so we don't always sterilize the floggers between scenes.
Rebecca says: Established couples often don't have certain items that single people expect.
Rebecca says: Condoms, for example. If sex is involved, it may be an issue for people. Be sure you have the needed supplies for your scene.
edana asks: what else?
edana asks: in other words, bring your own gear so to speak?
Rebecca nods. You may need to, edana...or maybe something needs to be purchased.
edana says: okay..just checking..
Rebecca says: For me, I cannot share certain toys.
Rebecca says: For example, some people are okay covering insertables with a condom and using it with multiple people. I'm not okay with it.
Rebecca shrugs.
Rebecca says: It's just me.
Rebecca says: Also...Prophet has one flogger that is a special flogger. It is only used on me.
Prophet smiles.
Prophet says: It does get noticed when we are out. People have asked to borrow it, but the answer is always "no."
Rebecca says: It's gorgeous & flashy...and there is not one reason not to lend it to others except it would take the next week or two prying me out of the bathroom while I cried my eyes out.
Rebecca says: So know what is okay to share and what is not.
Rebecca asks: In the case of the flogger...it is just precious to me...and personal...you know? So when others are around, we simply don't bring it out.
Rebecca says: Personal emotions aside, some toys require that you consider safety though.
Prophet asks: Do you really want to share your butt plug?
Prophet says: That was in general & not really directed at rebecca.
Rebecca says: Okay..now we have an example.
Kristine wrinkles her nose
Kristine snuggles into Dmaster's lap.
Rebecca nods to Kris. Exactly.
Kristine grins
Rebecca says: However to some people, it wouldn't bother them. To others, it does.
Rebecca says: Regardless of where the line is drawn, everyone needs to know and understand each other's comfort zone.
Rebecca asks: Any questions so far?
Kristine says: nope
Rebecca says: Okay...here are some things to think about.
Rebecca says: I think "think abouts" are often overlooked, but they are important if you want to have a good experience.
Rebecca says: One thing to remember: If it doesn't feel right, STOP.
Rebecca says: When discussing anything with someone else....really listen to what is being said.
Prophet nods
Rebecca says: Sometimes, people have different ideas of what they hope to happen...if during the talk, everyone doesn't seem to come to a consensus...STOP.
Rebecca says: Rather thinking of the couple as a unit with a "tag-along", think of the everyone as a "triangle" where everyone is equally as important.
Raven says: Don't be in a hurry
Rebecca nods to Raven.
Rebecca says: Getting in a hurry will lead to problems.
Raven says: Make boundaries VERY clear no surprises and no hurt feelings later.
Rebecca nods again at Raven's comment. Good point!
Rebecca says: The joiner needs to feel that (s)he has a role within the scene. Everyone needs to know they belong.
Rebecca says: And unless it is specifically what the joiner seeks, the joiner’s role should not be simply "foreplay" for the couple.
Annie says: I suspect that you may find your "comfort zone" isn't what you expected once you get going, either
Rebecca smiles
Rebecca says: That brings a great point up, Annie.
Prophet sneaks a hand into the bag and gives Annie a "gold star".
Rebecca says: No matter how good of an idea it seems...NO matter HOW right it feels at the moment...do not re-negotiate during a scene.
jill sits down quietly and listens.
Rebecca says: After the scene, talk about what could happen...feelings, etc...and then consider it for next time.
Rebecca says: People often are not thinking clearly during.
Prophet says: esp if you hit head space
Rebecca says: This is another side note.
Rebecca says: We heard from a friend that she was playing with another couple. Everything had been discussed.
Rebecca says: It was to be a very casual play type of scene...no sexual contact, etc.
Rebecca says: During the scene, she really got into things, and ended up in a sexual situation with the top.
Rebecca says: Afterwards she was mortified...and very upset and embarrassed.
Rebecca says: No one wants to end a scene when it is going very well, but no one wants a friend upset after the scene is over either. Don't re-negotiate during play.
Rebecca says: Again...you can always play another time if someone really wanted it to go in a different direction than what had been agreed upon. But take time to discuss it when everyone is thinking clearly.
Rebecca says: Just something else to think about.
jill asks: ?
Rebecca smiles at Jill. Question?
jill nods. 'in that situation, shouldn't the Dom have at least kept his head about him and not have let the sexual contact occur?
Rebecca says: That is a very good question.
jill might have missed the beginning and is sorry.
Rebecca says: In my opinion, he shouldn't have gone there.
jill nods.
Rebecca says: If it had been me, he definitely would have never gone there twice because I would have tossed a massive fit.
Kristine grins
Rebecca says: However it did happen with the other person. Her reaction was "I'm new...I didn't safeword, so it's all my fault." While I do agree she should have safeworded, I don't agree it is her fault. I really do blame the top in this case. I feel that the bottom had her world turned upside down at that moment and he took advantage of it.
Rebecca says: Of course...that is 100% my opinion.
Annie says: I wonder if it isn't as likely to work the other way.
Rebecca listens to Annie.
Annie says: In other words, people feeling less comfortable than they'd anticipated, and having to back off a little.
Rebecca nods. That happens too and people should be prepared.
Rebecca says: Which brings up an important "Think About", Annie.
Rebecca says: Be ready for uncertainty.
Rebecca says: No matter how well you know someone....you will see a different side of them when scening.
Rebecca says: No matter how well you know someone...people can act differently when the paradigm changes as it will within the context of a scene.
Annie nods
Rebecca says: Have a way to let each other know that things are going too
fast...
Rebecca says: Also, be ready in case someone does something totally unexpected.
Rebecca says: One time with us, a friend really regressed.
Rebecca says: Everyone was being playful and a little bit childish, but she turned into a five year old. As well as we knew her, we didn’t know she ever wanted to act like a small child. She may not have known either really.
Rebecca laughs.
Prophet wondered if he was going to have to buy diapers
Rebecca says: I really wasn't planning to play house nor were we expecting to have a five year old on our hands.
Prophet smiles
Rebecca says: However...we worked through it.
Prophet says: We sent her to bed after reading a bedtime story.
Rebecca says: Alone.
Rebecca laughs.
Rebecca says: She was okay with that and slept right through until morning.
Dmaster chuckles.
Prophet smiles
Rebecca looks at the time and eeps.
Rebecca says: Okay...if it is someone you plan to play with more than one time, develop a way to establish role time vs friend time.
Rebecca says: It can be as easy as saying, "Once you arrive tonight, your role goes until sunrise.
Rebecca says: It can be anything.
Rebecca says: A toy that the top holds til (s)he ends the scene.
Rebecca says: In a co-top situation, they can decide things together, etc.
Rebecca says: But have a way for everyone to know when the play stops and the normal r/ship continues.
Rebecca says: That is really important.
Prophet nods.. yes it is
Rebecca says: And last of all...understand that just because you see each other naked once doesn't mean it will happen again.
Rebecca says: Just because you were allowed [negotiated privaleges] once, doesn't mean it is that way forever.
Rebecca says: Again, if you have discussed things thoroughly, it won't be an issue.
Rebecca says: If you do it right, people will understand what is expected, what is okay to do and what not to do, and everyone will have a good time.
Rebecca says: Any questions or comments/
Annie smiles
jill nods. 'comment. i'm sorry i missed practically the whole thing.
Prophet says: Rebecca has a log of the discussion. If you want it, she could send it to you.
Rebecca says: And to the question that was asked in tells, I don't mind a BIT if they kiss my master, but only if it is okay with him.
jill says: that was my next question. thank you.
Prophet smiles
Rebecca smiles at the person who asked.
Rebecca grins
Rebecca says: and...um...as long as I can watch.
Rebecca smiles
Prophet *LOL*
Rebecca says: That's it.
Mari giggles
Rebecca says: No more notes.
Rebecca says: So you guys have to talk if you want to continue this discussion.
Rebecca laughs.
Rebecca places her nearly full bag of stars back in her pouch.
jill applauds.
Dmaster claps
Prophet claps
Mari says: good job, Rebecca
Annie exclaims: thank you!
Warlock says: Nice discussion
Rebecca says: Thanks.
Rebecca blushes
Rebecca says: I will try to get the log cleaned up soon for those who want it.
jill is looking forward to that.