Humiliation with Amadeus
December 13, 2002

Please do not cut and paste text, although you are certainly welcome to link directly to this URL:
http://www.iron-rose.com/IR/docs/humiliation1202.htm   Feel fee to contact amadeus@iron-rose.com

Amadeus says: Welcome, everyone, and thanks for joining me for my first (and  knowing my skills in this area, likely my last) discussion group at IR. :)

Amadeus says: The topic tonight is humiliation. Many people have many  concepts of humiliation, so in the spirit of the phrase "discussion group", we're going to explore some initial concepts as well as what you may feel humiliation really is.

Amadeus says: According to the Merriam Webster dictionary, humiliation (or more specifically "humiliate") is defined as: to reduce to a lower position in one's own eyes or others' eyes

Amadeus says: By this definition, it could be argued that submission in and of itself is humiliating, as it tends to put one at a position lower than that of the dominant partner. However, for the purposes of this discussion, we'll focus on more common interpretations of humiliation.

Amadeus says: It's important to note that what some may find humiliating, others may consider "vanilla" in the course of a BDSM scene or lifestyle.

Amadeus says: This is, however, an open discussion, so feel free to chime in at any time with your thoughts on this subject as we go along.

Amadeus asks: What kinds of humiliation are there? Well, there are two key categories that come to mind initially: psychological, and physical. The physical does tend to lead to psychological humiliation, but we'll examine each of them separately to begin.

Amadeus says: Psychological humiliation generally involves verbal statements by the Dominant regarding something the submissive may be emotionally sensitive to. It involves words as opposed to actions, yet may still cause pain, arousal, or (and hopefully) excitement (for whom would be another story).

Amadeus says: It's critical in a scene involving psychological humiliation that both partners are able to clearly differentiate between the scene and reality. It is not the intent of the Dominant in such a scene to emotionally scar the submissive permanently, rather it is used to heighten various sensations during within the scene itself.

Amadeus asks: Who can give me an example of psychological humiliation?

Beethoven asks: telling someone their worthless?

Amadeus asks: Good, Beethoven. Does that really imply the person has no worth as a human being, or in what context might that be applied?

Beethoven asks: literal meaning? no

Beethoven says: otherwise, im not real sure what it means. ive just been there in other circumstances..

Amadeus says: Perhaps another example of psychological, or verbal, humiliation might be bringing up something the submissive has done in the past, something to cause shame or guilt.

Amadeus says: Well, Beethoven, a Dominant may choose to call their submissive worthless after they failed to perform a task to their liking. Or, for that matter, even if they did perform suitably, it is still an effective way to keep the submissive in their place.

Beethoven nods.. thanks.

Amadeus asks: Okay. So we've established that verbal humiliation is a way to psychologically intimidate a submissive, but can anyone tell us how that can increase the excitement in a scene? This can be either from a Dominant or submissive point of view.

sara says: well, it can make the submissive feel more submissive.

Amadeus asks: In what way, sara? How would me telling you that you're worthless because you can't make my drink properly make you feel more submissive?

sara says: well, it reminds very poignantly of my place relative to the Dominant.

Amadeus asks: Does anyone have a Dominant perspective on how humiliation can enhance pleasure for you in a scene?

Amadeus says: Okay, so we're short on Dom/mes tonight. :) Unfortunately I can't offer this side of the story, because I don't top... much. :)

Amadeus says: So we've established that verbal humiliation is an effective way to keep a submissive in their place. Once that's established, the other traditional form of humiliation, physical, can be used.

Amadeus says: Physical humiliation can take many forms. It may involve a minor change in how something is traditionally done (such as making the submissive eat their food out of a dog bowl on the floor instead of sitting at the table like the rest of the big kids).

hawgRider says: Forcing the sub to wear specific clothing..

Amadeus says: It may also extend beyond the privacy of the home. For example, the submissive may be required to wear something particularly slutty, or something hideously ugly that they wouldn't otherwise be caught dead wearing.

Amadeus says: Exactly, hawgRider.

banshee grins. like pink panties. :)

Amadeus says: This is a good example, though, of how something that is humiliating to one person may just be plain old fun to someone else.

hawgRider says: True

Amadeus says: And that's all I'll say about that one. :)

hawgRider says: it comes down to control, really

Amadeus says: Someone recently mentioned a great example of humiliation that is both physical and psychological in the lair. They described having their submissive cum on their food, and then eat it as if it were a normal meal. This serves a purpose of a physical action causing psychological humiliation. You should note that for men, humiliation tends to be heightened immediately after sexual release, as desire tends to diminish right at that moment.

Amadeus asks: I know the submissives will hate me asking this question, as it may offer some new ideas, but can anyone give other examples of physical humiliation?

hawgRider doesn't mind if his Domme uses mild humiliation around other ppl involved in kink, but NEVER with straights..

Amadeus asks: But wouldn't it be possible, hawgRider, to have something that would be humiliating to you, but may not be apparent to others watching?

hawgRider thinks  hawgRider says: its pretty damn hard to humiliate me *wink8

Amadeus says: Wearing panties, for example, may be a way to constantly remind the submissive of their place, but without anyone else knowing they're there.

hawgRider says: Ok, short of that ;)  its around vanillas, i'd not take being humiliated well..

Amadeus says: So we've talked about psychological humiliation, and physical humiliation (which is almost guaranteed to cause psychological humiliation). Let's talk for a minute about setting up a scene, or negotiationg the humiliation.

Beethoven says: humiliation happens everyday.. vanilla or not

hawgRider says: yup.  and i don't react well to it, i'm afraid.. ;)

Amadeus says: As I mentioned earlier, it's critical to know your partner well if you're going to use humiliation in a scene. Otherwise, you may touch on emotionally sensitive areas that extend well beyond the comfort 
level of the scene itself, and you may not know how to help your partner recover from that feeling.

hawgRider says: However, at a kink party, very little bothers me.   i guess because i know that everyone there is also kinky..

Amadeus says: As a submissive, in agreeing to humiliation play, it's important that you trust your Dominant implicitly. You are now giving much more than your body. Now that's true in most BDSM play anyway, but when you move into humiliation, your mind is at risk, to a degree. You have to be comfortable that you can keep the actions and words used in the scene separate from your self-worth outside the scene.

hawgRider says: i agree completely.   its an area that can be thrilling, or dangerous..

Amadeus asks: Before we wrap up, does anyone have any other examples of humiliation, or anything else they wish to add?

Amadeus says: With nothing else, then...

Amadeus says: Thanks for participating, everyone. This discussion group will be posted in the Iron Rose library soon. Kim has also provided a very good writeup on humiliation in the library. It can be found at http://www.iron-rose.com/IR/docs/humiliation.htm -- I encourage you to read that if you're interested in learning more.

[A brief chat was held in which people asked to reopen the discussion, so we now continue]

Amadeus exclaims: Okay, welcome back to the discussion. Since it appears I may have gone too fast for some of you slowpokes (see, incorporating the topic of the discussion here!), we'll resume. Caitlyn, you had something you wanted to add?

Caitlyn nods. an example. a scene in one of the books I'm fond of involves a submissive having to "ride" the boot of the dominant until she has an orgasm.  Caitlyn grins. gets me all sorts of hot and bothered, but I would certainly find it humiliating to have to do.

Rebecca says: Public displays of all sorts can be unsettling....and erotic.

Amadeus says: What if you were to take the same concept, Caitlyn, and move it to a public setting with one change... something other than the boot. So you're on a bus, and you have to ride *something* to orgasm. Whether you make noise or not is up to you.

Amadeus asks: Scarlett, you had also mentioned you had some comments during the discussion that I may have been too quick (okay, that's another story) to let you get in. Would you like to share?

Scarlett asks: I was interested in those who had used humiliation in their scenes... how one follows the right path? I have the sense you can really get into a nasty situation  And I'm not sure that the sub would just say: don't do x,y,z.  Is there a way to draw out the tender areas so you don't go there, or do you just go slow...or...?

Amadeus says: In my opinion, Scarlett, that's all part of negotiating the scene. It's important that both parties understand the limits, both physical and emotional.

hawgRider agrees, it comes down to limits..

smaid says: Set up safe words green= go yellow = slow down red stop and .t

hawgRider says: and knowing your sub enough to 'stretch' them, but not to far

Amadeus says: At the same time, that's the whole reason why you have to know and trust the partner with whom you're involving humiliation. It's much more likely with psychological humiliation than with a flogger that you're going to hit a sensitive spot. You have to be prepared to recognize them, and to take appropriate measures emotionally to help your partner if they happen.

Rebecca says: I think it is also really listening to what someone finds appealing....like Cait's story...exactly what part does she find interesting...the boot, the situation of being watched, the control of the other person watching her masturbate herself, etc.

Amadeus asks: Very good point, Rebecca. So Caitlyn, what parts of your scenario *would* you enjoy, and why would it be humiliating to you? :)

Caitlyn says to Amadeus: all of it.. and the various bits of it that Rebecca mentioned as well if that makes sense.

Beethoven says: the boot

Caitlyn says: as for why it's humiliating.. I believe it comes down to the idea of being made to do something you wouldn't normally consider doing. and doing it willingly, if not eagerly, because it was commanded of you.

hawgRider finds mild humiliation a 'sub.space.enhancer'  but, taken to far, and it has the opposite effect

Amadeus says: I feel the same way, hawgRider.

hawgRider says: its a fine line...

Amadeus says: For me, it's black, white, and gray. Some things, no problem. I can do 'em. Some things, no question, no way. The whole gray area in the middle is what I pretty much avoid, until I've found the partner who gets to know me well enough that I trust them to wade knee-deep through the emotional swamp safely.

hawgRider says: good idea Amadeus. its all in hitting that 'right' button.. and, at the right time

Amadeus asks: Okay, who else can give an example of something they find humiliating? Something you really want someone to make you do, but it's so humiliating you can't even admit it...

hawgRider says: i believe in total honesty, and good communication with your dom/me/sub..

Amadeus asks: Kerr, you've been quiet this whole time. Yet somehow, well, I know you. What would you find humiliating in a scene?

Amadeus asks: Hrm. Apparently speaking is humiliating for Kerr. So we'll move on. :) Anyone else? I don't want to move around too quickly, now...

Kerr says: Humiliation is not something I have a lot of experience with really.. I mean at least in a scene context.

Amadeus nods  Amadeus asks: Okay, Kim, you had something you wanted to add?

Kim says: Humiliation is when I feel "stupid" but am not made to "look stupid."  That's hot humiliation. Although it doesn't happen in a scene context for me, I can get a scene-like rush out of it. When I feel like I'm a total moron, but the person won't let me fall.

Amadeus asks: Without trying to put you on the spot too much, can you give us an example, Kim?

Kim says: Surely. I danced with someone far superior to me tonight. They did moves I had no clue. Because they were such a good dancer, they led me through them, and made me look good. Even as my eyes were wide with terror and I kept saying "I have no clue what we're doing."

Kim says: That...was good stuff. Terrifying on the inside. Not left to fall flat on my face on the outside. I think that balance is what makes it good for many people when it comes to humiliation. It's a fine line. It's a hot, scary line.

Amadeus says: Thanks once again everyone for participating. I really appreciate your involvement. :)

Please do not cut and paste text, although you are certainly welcome to link directly to this URL:
http://www.iron-rose.com/IR/docs/humiliation1202   Feel fee to contact amadeus@iron-rose.com