COMING OUT - with Amanda, August 1999

Amanda says: let me start by saying we are NOT trying to talk anyone into 'coming out.'   It's a very personal decision.  It does make your life a lot easier if you are able to be open about your lifestyle.  I found that as i became more and more involved in this life, it became more and more normal to me.  It was hard for me to remember that there were people who thought we were sick twisted people <grin> I 'came out' by accident...my mother discovered one of my whips <grin>.  But i had been moving to that for quite some time.  I have found, in my own experience and in talkign to others, that the
anticipation is usually worse than the reality.  Most people who love you are not going to change how they feel about
you.  But...i have asked some others to come here tonight and share their stories <smile>.  Absinthe, are you ready to take the podium? <grin>  Did you have a good exprience or a bad one?  Did you come out on purpose, or was it an accident like mine?  What i hope to acomplish tonight is to give people a few ideas on HOW to approach the subject because getting started is usually the hardest part.

Absinthe says: well, I'm not out to my family as BDSM, simply because I don't think it's relevant to them.  I was going to talk about coming out to my father as a Pagan, and as a bisexual polyamorist, both of which have relevance to him.

Amanda nods, coming out is coming out...the details are not as important as the experience and how you approached it...and the results of course.

Absinthe says: My father and stepmother are both United Methodist ministers, which made the Pagan part nerve-wracking, but because I usually seem him at holidays (esp. Christmas), I thought it was something he need to know.  And this part is especially relevant to Amanda's comment about anticipation being much worse than reality, generally.

Amanda says: talk about a tough audience <smiling sympathetically to absinthe>

Absinthe says: I saw him one Thanksgiving, tried the whole time at dinner to work up the courage and opportunity, but we had this annoying waiter who kept interrupting at bad times... so I gave up.  Instead, I called him that evening, and said, "Dad, there's something I wanted to tell you at dinner... first off, I'm not a Christian anymore."   Dead silence.  "And... well, I'm a witch."

Amanda says: you must have died a thousand deaths right there
Absinthe says: Breath of relief
Amanda asks: from him or you?
Absinthe says: From him... I heard him SIGH this incredible SIGH
Absinthe says: He said, "Thank god, I thought you were atheist."
Amanda says: i think that your loved ones almost always know that SOMETHING about you is different....and as this case shows, the anticipation is often worse than the reality that you are one of those 'kinky bdsmers'
Absinthe says: He was serious too... ever since then, our get-togethers have gone from superficial conversations to serious theological discussions...  Well, yeah... if you're hiding something, people tend to pick up on it, and often what THEY might think is worse than what the case is.
Amanda says: so your relationship is stronger now than it was when you were keeping your secret.
Absinthe says: Again, when I came out as bi and poly, it was because I wanted to start bringing Selena, or perhaps another lover, with Val and me when we went to visit. And again, he surprised me. I thought he would go ballistic about the poly part, and let the bi part just slip by... he's involved in the queer group at the church

Amanda asks: i have to ask absinthe <smile> val is your wife?
Absinthe says: yep, Valerie's my wife (her handle on IR is... incredibly creatively... Valerie)
Amanda giggles  Amanda asks: having your parents accept bisexual and polyamorous HAS to be hard for them...but he was able to accept it?

Absinthe says: instead, he got all uncomfortable about the bi part and said, "Well, there's nothing in christian teaching that's anti-polygamy".  The bi part, he accepted but we avoid. the poly part, he has no trouble with.
Amanda asks: did the negative reaction to your being bisexual affect your relationship with him? or was he able to accept it as part of you even if he didnt like it.
Absinthe says: all the same, it's good to know where his discomfort lies... that way, I know that I should be extra-careful if I'm in the position to bring a male lover with me, but don't need to worry about girlfriends.
Amanda nods, knowing the boundries....coming out doesnt mean you have to shove people's noses in it.  How do YOU feel after coming out absinthe? did it make a big difference in your life? a small one? none?

Absinthe says: It hasn't had a negative effect. I think it's good, because telling him about it let me know where I stood. It's usually better to know how something's going to be taken, then not know at all and worry.  Even if someone takes something *poorly*, that's better than not knowing, and, as you said before, if someone really loves you, the worst that will happen is, after a period of "dealing," they'll just avoid the topic, rather than flat-out reject you

Amanda grins, you can make yourself crazy with the stuff you assume...and its almost always worse than the reality.  Katherine, was your experience similar to absinthe's? you came out to your mom, right? as a bdsm'er?

Katherine says: a little different <smile> It was accidentally-on purpose
Amanda exclaims: and how did you bring up the subject? That's the hardest part i think!
Katherine says: She brought it up actually. we share a credit card and she saw a charge for a place called Purple Passion in NYC <grins at Amanda>.  She asked if I was a lesbian, and then immediately said that it was *okay* if I was a lesbian.  I could have covered it up, but I decided to tell her. I stammered a lot.  I made her guess because I was afraid to say things right out.

Amanda says: it was a good opening....you need to take advantage of any kind of opening like that if you want to come out
Absinthe nods
Katherine nods! It made it a whole lot easier than just sitting down with her and telling her, "Mom, I'm a dominant, I like to flog people!"
Absinthe lol
kandy grins
Amanda asks: did she have any realistic idea of what the life was like? was she interested in how you deal with it, what you do? or did she just not really want to know the details <grin>

Katherine says: She had no clue, but she was interested in learning. She asked if I let people beat me while we had sex. SO I had to straighten her out on the roles.  Then she asked if I whipped people and then fucked them. and she's still not too clear on that part.
Amanda says: as an aside, my mother also has thought for years that i was a lesbian, that was the explaination that made sense to her..and she was fine with that also. the bdsm, particularly as i am submissive, was a little harder...but she accepted it very well and was also interested in learning more - no real DETAIL, but just enough to know that i was safe
Katherine says: yes, exactly
Amanda asks: have you noticed any change in her, how she interacts with you?

Katherine says: she asked very good questions, actually. I explained safewords. I explained that a good dominant is familiar with all the toys they use.  No, not really.. she still asks about things.
Amanda nods...people are always surprised...and relieved...to find out that we DO know what we are doing, that we have a strong concern for safety
Katherine says: she visited this weekend and things were normal <smile> She's actually very cool with this
Amanda grins, thats wonderful
Katherine says: but she did say, not to tell my father and step mother <laugh>
Amanda laughs, do you think you WILL be telling them?
Katherine says: no, I don't.
Amanda asks: may i ask why? because its a good point...you know the person best, and sometimes you just KNOW that its better left unsaid
Katherine says: my father is very racist and my stepmother is very Anti-Katherine.  I love them both, to a degree. I don't want to ruin what balance there is.
Amanda says: you can't shove your lifestyle down anyones throat, but you do have a right to live it and be comfortable with it.  Amanda nods, some people will just never understand and maybe its best to leave it that way
Katherine says: Exactly.

Absinthe says: interesting... my father's comment about my bisexuality was that I shouldn't tell my brother, because "he's at a certain age, and might not be able to understand it"
Amanda asks: was he ok with you telling him at some future date absinthe? Or did he just not really want your siblings to know
Absinthe says: I think he thought my brother was riding the fence, and that that would give him permission to go gay...
Amanda nods, thinking that you can 'turn' someone else into you is probably the biggest stumbling block  People who love you are usually ready to accept YOU..but don't contaminate anyone else <grin>

Amanda asks: kandy, you have had both good and bad experiences with coming out, am
i right?
kandy nods breathing heavy yeah.  kandy had to go get her pespi fix.  Well it all started about 3 years ago,when i found out i was not a domme or a switch but a slave. I had wanted to surprise my Master with some .. naughty pictures of me in my cuffs and collar.  A girlfriend of mine took the picks of me at my home, with clamps, wax and a nicely reddened tushie, now my sister knew about them and thought they where cute (she is 6 years younger than i am) anyways, some how my mom found
the negatives .. she exploded
Amanda winces...didnt take it well huh
kandy says: she thought that my girlfriend, had turned me into a bad person, that i was going down some evil road, she whanted me to go see a priest.  But that was not the bad part, the bad part was her saying she did not want a lesbian who was into ungodly things like that to hurt her younger daughter.

Amanda asks: may i ask how long ago this happened kandy? and has her stance softened over time?
kandy says: this was three years ago, now she never talks about it, at that time, she watched every move i made with an egle eye
Amanda asks: did your sister help her calm down you think? by showing that she is not going to be 'changed' by what you do or dont do?
kandy says: actua;ly yes, my sis has always been my best friend, she talked to my mom, telling her that i was a teacher .. for preeschoolers, that i had gone to church and that i still go somtimes.
kandy says: she reminded her about my devotion to my family, my mother cannot even see my girl friend in a picture cuzz she gets mad, but she no longer makes comments about my lifestyle.
Amanda nods, thats good anyway...she may not like it still, but she is accepting that she cant change it
kandy says: yes very true.

Amanda asks: let me ask you this kandy....did it make YOUR life easier or harder when your mom found out. emotionally as well as physically. and are you sorry that it happened?
kandy says: sorry that it hurt her yes, but i could not help her, other than that, i am glad she knows.
Amanda says: so sometimes this coming out stuff takes time <smile> but its good to know that a bad inital reaction doesnt necessary mean they wont come to accept it over time.  You have had a good experience with coming out also, is that right
kandy?
kandy smiles yes, well for one my sister, .. she has gone so far to get me in trouble with my past Master.  About a year ago, i came out to a very good friend, and she came out to me at that time to, since then she and i have been involving ourselvs
with bdsm groups ad clubs in our area.
Amanda chuckles, did she turn out to be interested in the lifestyle herself, or just thinking that its no big deal? Your sister i mean.
kandy says: she thinks its no big deal, it does not inetrest her in any way, other than she thinks she is getting her revenge through my Master.
Amanda grins, thats a part of coming out that had not occurred to me!
kandy says: hehehe
Amanda asks: how did you and your girlfriend approach the subject?  Who brought it up first?
taken exclaims: i.e., "Give her a few good whacks for that time she ruined my blouse!!"?
Amanda giggles at taken
kandy laughs !! yes somthing like that

kandy grins .. well Master wanted me to wear my collar and cuffs, irl all the time
Amanda says: were they subtle cuffs/collar, or really obvious <grin>
kandy says: so one night when we went to dinner .. i accidently forgot that i was wearing them and pulled up the sleeves on my turtleneck.  Oh hell no, he wanted the thick studded black leather cuffs and collar.
Amanda grins, what was her reaction?
kandy says: so we are at denny's, our faveorite hang out and i am sitting the talking like nothing with my cuffs banging on the table, she could not take her eyes off of them
Absinthe chuckles
rowan giggles
Amanda giggles
kandy asks: when i came back to reality, she asked " what hell are thoes?"
rowan laughs
kandy says: you can bet i blushed to hi hell.  Master loved the story too, they all get me
Amanda laughs...did you try and make something up, or just 'fess up'
kandy says: anyways, i told her i was a slave and she asked me what that was.  I'm honest i had to tell her :) or Master would have really tanned my hide.

Amanda says: i think its interesting that for 3 of us, coming out happened because someone stumbled across something bdsm-related...and truthfully, its a great way to open the subject. if you do it accidently on purpose you can at least
pick something that isnt too frightening
Absinthe nods
Amanda says: not scaring them is a big part of getting them to accept the situation
kandy says: and she tells me that she has had these fantasy's, about these cravings about being dominated.  kandy nods true
Amanda asks: she had never been part of the lifestyle before talking to you kandy?
kandy says: and i told her she felt like a sub, so i very gently introduced bdsm to her, no not at all.  kandy laughs!!  She went in a trenchcoat, a hat, glasses and made me take her at night to a porn store.  She was afraid anyone would see her
Amanda chuckles
kandy says: now she invites me over for porn night.  kandy giggles .. i still tease her about that
Absinthe says: I was going to say before... one suggestion that is made about "coming out" is to leave some obvious object, or a book, or something out for the person to see

Amanda asks: to see? another good side of coming out....if kandy had not shared her lifestyle with her friend, her friend would still be thinking she was some kind of sicko
kandy says: uh huh :)
Amanda exclaims: a book is a GREAT idea absinthe! there are so many that are matter of fact and informative...and its information that makes this all less scary to vanilla people
Absinthe says: so we tried that with Val's mom... we left a copy of "Witchcraft Today" in her living room.
Amanda asks: did it work absinthe?
Absinthe says: but everytime we'd go over, for a good month and a half, it was moved onto a pile of "Val's stuff."  We'd move it back to somewhere obvious, and her mother would move it back to "Val's stuff"
Amanda laughs...but it DID give you an opening...you could ask her 'have you wondered about this book at all?'
Absinthe says: we finally gave up and just talked about it, and told her the book was SUPPOSED to be a hint, and she said, "You know I don't touch you guys's stff"
Amanda asks: was she imagining all kinds of wild devil worship? <grin>
Absinthe says: nah, she didn't care. 

Amanda says: parents are so much cooler than we give them credit for <grin>.   Rowan, you have a story to share also?
rowan says: i started also with the book idea for coming out, something fictional though, fantasy  When my husband first saw it he said what the hell are you reading.
Amanda grins at rowan, did he have ANY idea of your needs in that area?
rowan says: anyway, he started reading and my suggestion was, why not try some of things, spice things up a bit, he thought i was crazy *smile*
Amanda nods, thats actually a great way to ease into it...try something mild, like a blindfold, and see how they react. its a good way to get a feel for whether or not they are ready to be told

rowan says: it wasn't long after that that we sated getting really involved with all kinds of BDSM aspects
Amanda asks: was he an enthusiastic particpant, or did you feel he was just doing it for you?
rowan says: at first i thught he was an enthusiastic paticipant.  The more involved it seemed to get though the more intensity i
desired
Amanda nods, its hard to hold yourself back when you are finally getting what you needed for however long.  It can be difficult if one partner is 'further along' in bdsm than the other...you have to be so careful not to scare them off, yet you cant deny what you need forever
rowan nods to amanda.  They were always desires that i thought could only be fantasy
Amanda asks: have you been able to turn any of your fantasies into reality....and do you think you would have found a way to do that if you had NOT told your husband?
rowan says: so, we've now reached a point where this is all i can expect for now or i move on, which is very difficult.  Never, if i had not told him.
Amanda nods...its a very hard decision...and yet, you were able to explore your own needs more fully after coming out...do you feel that it helped you toward whatever decision you now have to make?  Or do you wish you could just go back to before he knew

rowan says: of course, i feel now that i've locked up my true soul for so long and now that it's been released there is no turning back.
Amanda gives rowan a hug, and hopes that everything turns out well for her
rowan says: at times Amanda, we have a long history together, i won't dwell on what ifs though
Amanda smiles, understanding

Amanda says: we have seen good results and bad <smile> but overall...it seems that people are happy that they got it off their chests, and were able to be honest about who they are and what they need.  I know that it really helped me...I'm so much more pleasant to be around now that im not half-angry all the time becuase i cant be doing what i WANT to be doing <grin>.  I hope that anyone who is contemplating coming out was able to pick up a few ideas about ways to approach it. 

taken says: I came out to my mom accidentally... but it turned out relatively well.
Amanda grins, has it made your life easier you think?
taken says: Yes, in many ways. Even though I'm not explicit with mom, I don't have to be paranoid anymore about hiding what it is I do.
Amanda says to taken: exactly! thats how i feel too...i dont bring it up, but i dont have to hide it. its a big relief
taken says: Technically, I'm a switch... though I couldn't really consider being a Domme to anybody but darius, at this point in my life.  Mom and I have always been fairly open about sex. She's open-minded. We were in Wal-Mart one day, shopping before I went down to see darius. She knew I was going down to see him, but not aware of "what we do". I was looking in the lingerie section... she thought for me, I guess!  And she was behind me, which I didn't know, when I muttered to myself "I wonder if this would fit around his tummy?"
taken chuckles.
rowan smiles
Amanda asks: what did she say? did she just pretend she didnt hear it?
taken exclaims: She said, "Ohhhhh?!"  In a smarmy kind of way.
Amanda laughs
taken exclaims: I jumped! and blushed furiously. She said, "what is it exactly that you're going to be doing down
there?"
Absinthe giggles
Amanda says: what a great opening <grin>
taken says: Well, I told her in very general terms that dar x-dresses.
Amanda asks: how did she react...does she know darius personally?
taken To my mom, that was OK. She was, first, concerned about whether he's gay, and if I had a chance of catching disease from him.
Absinthe says: oh please
taken says: No, she doesn't. But I've talked about him a lot... she knows we're very close. Amanda nods, the safety factor again...its the first concern of someone who loves you
taken says: For my mom...it was best that I came out first as a top.
Absinthe says: I know, but it's annoyingly niave =}
taken says: yes, it is.
Amanda nods, its easier for parents to accept a Dominant child i think, than a submissive one
taken says: I was raised to be a "strong independent" woman...
Amanda says: there is a bigger fear factor, and a worry that you are being 'taken advantage of'
taken exclaims: When, after many other times of talking about it in general terms, she asked if he tops me, I told her. She was like "Well! You don't let him beat you up, do you???" She was worried about me being hurt, first and foremost.
Absinthe nods
taken says: That was tricky to navigate. But she gets it, and she knows that I'm not an idiot. taken smiles.
Amanda smiles at taken...she knows she can trust your good sense. thats what helped my mom a lot too