Bad Subs - Brats Don't Just Happen
with Rebecca from Iron Rose
Please do not cut and paste text, although
you are certainly welcome to link directly to this URL:
http://www.iron-rose.com/IR/docs/badsubs.htm
Feel fee to contact rebecca@iron-rose.com
Rebecca exclaims: First of all...welcome! I wanted to go over a few things prior to the actual discussion...First...it is a discussion. If you have a
question or comment ask! Secondly...the purpose of this discussion is to think about
misbehavior. It is not the end all to be all of ensuring that you never have someone misbehave or will misbehave to someone else.
Third: I'm not a therapist. And last of all, this is part of a talk I give irl about power
and its uses....and you will see much of what I discuss tonight in any situation where power is involved....such as work...or
three year olds demanding treats at the local grocery. Rebecca smiles
Rebecca says: Now...what this discussion is not. It is not how to get someone who does not give over submission freely to give it to you. Submission is a gift...and that is the context of this discussion. For the sake of this topic, assume that we are talking about situations where submission has been given freely...and now there are problems....not someone who makes another force them to do every little thing every little time...that is another discussion altogether.
Rebecca says: First of all, keep in mind there are only three outcomes to any
request made by a top to a bottom. Commitment, compliance and resistance. When I mention that brat doesn't just happen, I'm not meaning
someone who puts on the brakes for a limit. I am discussing someone who has asked for something that is not a
limit...there is no reason for them not to do it...but instead of hearing "Mistress/Master, I have a concern.." or a safeword, the top hears something
along the lines of "I don't fucking think so, buster."
Kim blinks.
Rebecca says: At this point, the behavior could be easily described as
"bratty." It doesn't have to be so blatant either.
Kim says: thank goodness.
Rebecca says: It can just be....resistance...very subtle...non-compliance. but it can be dramatic too.
Rebecca says: There are four major reasons for non-compliance. Attention, power, revenge, and lack of confidence. We will discuss those more later. They are each serious issues. Should one get non-compliance, the first thing to look for is: Are the bottom's personal needs okay. Keep in mind that everyone...even the most obedient person has real and genuine needs. For example: You are not going to get commitment from someone who is absolutely hungry or thirsty to the point it is all they are thinking about. Food and drink is a major need. A hungry subbie is going to give you compliance at best. Same with ridding one's self of waste. If I have to pee....it is a major concern...and most things even my master's coffee....tend to take second seat.
Rebecca says: If a subbie is sick...not well...exhausted...etc....you are not going to get a high level of service if any. Sleep, food, drink, rest, escape from pain, illness, and ridding of wastes...and AIR....all are needs. And if any of them are not met, you will end up with someone who will become resistant over a time... and you will get compliance at the very best should you press for any type of service.
phyn says: I was wondering if there takes on another layer of the negative
behaviors are happening in a public dungeon or private dungeon party as if to embarrass
or undermine
Rebecca nods. There can...and I'll cover that with the four major reasons. But before you can look there for a problem, it is best to ensure
that the needs are met. In other words....when the needs are not met...it is not an
intentional thing on the part of the bottom. When needs are not met...there are not subversive factors in
play. So...check them out.
Kim asks: What if the bottom is ill...can I expect *any* level of servcie?
Rebecca says: Honestly, it depends on the level of illness. I will tell you that if it is a sniffle...then probably but less
so....if it is a major illness...put them to bed. Does that make sense? When I was sick, I made dinner by ordering delivery.
When I was really sick, Prophet took great care of me. and I just layed in bed and whined.
Lavicka asks: is it the responsibility of the sub to always make these needs
known? or should the dom/me check for certain things, like potty breaks or food breaks, to make sure the sub is at their best?
Rebecca says: That's a great question. The truth is if the subbie knows it, then yes, they should fess
up.
Lavicka nods
Rebecca says: However, sometimes people don't really know they are *that* tired.
I can tell you that when I get wound up...I can wear myself out...and the next thing is I don't want to sleep...and will be
deadweight...like a six year old not wanting to go to bed. and I get crabby...and whiny....and fussy..... and my master drop kicks my butt in bed...or forces me to take a
nap.
Lavicka does that when sick... i'll push myself because i know what i *should* be doing... then pay for it later when i can't move
Rebecca nods. Lots of people do...especially subbies...cause they tend to be "People pleasers by nature.
I don't like to deny service. So I will drag myself until I drop at times.
phyn says: it is hard for me to own up to not being
able to comply, feels inadequate, half-hearted hate being sick
Rebecca nods to phyn. It's a common problem...which is why it is a good thing for a top to do a quick check.
Rebecca says: Okay....next...keep in mind that everyone needs to be wanted...to know where they fit in....and to be appreciated for what they do. If your subbie doesn't know the answers to those three questions...there will be problems...even if it is a one night thing. Even when someone is there to serve for a weekend, be sure they know they are wanted...be sure they know where they fit in...and be sure that they know you appreciate them. If not...they will feel like a guest...or an outsider...and they won't relax well enough to serve. And this will even happen to someone who has been around for a while. If suddenly something happens....then the subbie may not know where they fit in for example....like when the top's mother shows up for the weekend. I mean....how does that change things? Does the subbie know what to expect...what to do, etc. If not...you are not going to get compliance...even covert compliance.
Rebecca says: Okay... Everything checks out. All needs are met.
The subbie knows where they fit in and are happy in where they
are. And suddenly...the subbie throws on the breaks. It's not a limit...it's not a safeword...and nothing is coming
about there being a problem. You have someone being resistant. And resistance can take sooo many forms.
Just being slower than molasses in January....to all out resistance. It can be verbal or non-verbal.
It can even be covert. When this happens...you need to look for the problem in one of
the four reasons for resistance: Attention....Power....Revenge....or Lack of confidence.
Annie asks: not sure what you mean by "covert" here...how would you know?
Rebecca says: Oh, I can give you a really good example. Just a series of "Oh gee, sir...I forgot..sorry..." Next day.
"Ooooh....gee.....sorry....so busy...." Next day, "I'm just so blonde at the moment..."
it may not seem like resistance.... but it is not compliance either.
phyn says: sometimes covert can mean little sabotages - like losing a favorite toy, forgetting to take
phone off hook and so on
Rebecca nods. It can be that too. And that is even a better example. thanks, phyn.
Rebecca says: Attention issues. These are cries for attention. We have all seen them. The pay attention to me thing. It's sooo common. If the resistance is being caused by attention, the top will generally feel annoyed. Not always...but often. It's a good way to figure out what the problem is. Power is just that...it is a struggle for power. When power is the issue, the top will often feel challenged.
Rebecca says: Revenge....that is a serious issue....if that is the case, the top will often feel angry or fearful.
Rebecca says: And lack of confidence...this is where the subbie doesn't feel s/he can really do what is being asked...or lacks the confidence to do it for whatever reason...and when it is the issue, the top will often feel frustrated.
Rebecca asks: What do you do with each issue? To begin to address each issue, understand that every one must understand the expectation....and there are three variables in all situations: The top, the bottom and the environment. Also...whatever is done by the top has to fit the problem...and correction has to fit the environment. Beating your subbie at K-Mart will get you arrested.
Rebecca says: The top has analyzed the situation....and decides it is
an attention issue. The top needs to ensure the bottom understands that s/he has the
top's attention... and you can avoid it by simply ensuring that you are not giving
misleading cues. Like...are computer games/TV more important than the report you
have insisted be written and given? Or ....you cannot stop staring/talking about the new subbie at
the club without involving your subbie in your little dream fantasy? Have you recognized that your subbie has changed his hair, used a
different perfume....or made something special for you.
phyn says: or a hurry-up-and-wait scenario. phyn nods.
Rebecca says: Hurry up and wait makes me crazy, phyn.
phyn nods and nods andnods. indeed
Rebecca says: But it doesn't mean there is an attention problem...that can just be a pet-peeve...which is true in my case.
But keep in mind..that in service, you are not there for your time line. Just say it over and over...it helps..really.
Patience...infinite patience...the mark of a good subbie. Rebecca nods.
Rebecca says: However...here is the scenario A top has someone freaking out and s/he knows it is an attention issue. What to do? First, reassure the bottom that they have your attention....and use ensure that you redefine roles. In other words.. Something like: I know I'm playing my computer game right now....but I plan to listen to your report in 20 min. Are you saying that I need to stop what I'm doing and obey your timeline? No...I think you need to go prepare... but stick to what you say. And if you say 20 min....make it 20 min. Not tomorrow...not 30.... You have to keep your credibility.
Rebecca says: Moving on to power. First, the top has to ensure s/he is really in control.
I'm a very strong person....for me to give control, I have to know that the control is being taken....someone has to be steering my ship.
there are signs of someone not in control. Yelling, for example. Someone screaming is not in control.
Allowing things to fall apart. Not maintaining themself or their subbie....etc. All of these things are signs of someone not in control.
LACK OF FOLLOW THROUGH. If the bottom sees that no one is in charge really...except on
limited self-serving occasions...expect a power struggle when it matters.
Lavicka nodsnods
Saint nods.
Rebecca says: Because if the bottom is actually handling the ship....s/he isn't going to stop steering cause you (the top) want to drive today.
Lavicka says: damn skippy
Saint laughs.
Rebecca grins at Lavicka.
Slacker chuckles.
Lavicka says: that's my biggest pet peeve... sorry :)
Rebecca says: However, if it is a sudden power struggle...the yeah, you are in charge..and doing a fine job steering this ship, but I'm driving today" type of
resistance....then being coercive usually works well here. Rebecca grins at Lavicka...that is why it is one of the FOUR biggest reasons
for resistance.
Rebecca says: However....two things. First, the bottom has to see the top as being worthy of giving
them power. And secondly...coercion only works once in a while.....if you have to use it over and over and over...there is some other reason.....like
they are doubting your ability to take control...or really are unwilling to give control...at play.
One quick note: If the bottom doesn't see the top as being able to handle control...the top is going to have constant problems here.
Rebecca grins around the room: So....for those aspiring tops...clean your room...your car...organize your closet...seem like you can handle
control...cause if you cannot handle yourself...you cannot handle someone too. Just an opinion, of course.
phyn flashes Rebecca a thumbs up.
Rebecca says: And yes, asking someone to do those things for you is okay...just ensure you manage it to be done.
Rebecca says: Next...revenge. Revenge is the most dangerous of all of the reasons.
First... It stems from sooo many factors. and until the reason for the revenge is found and addressed....it
will stay a problem. Often people do not want to admit that there is a problem. Also...this is a person who is angry.
And angry people are unpredictable. Third....revenge usually comes out in situations where harm
can occur...for the person (top) in relatively safety for the person (bottom) seeking revenge...like at a family gathering...or scene party.
And last of all...the top's inclination will be to force compliance...and so they are trying to now force someone who is already pissed
off....often in front of others. Add it up...and you get a very bad situation...that could be
really embarrassing.
Rebecca says: So the first thing that you need to do is get to a SAFE place to
address the problem. Rewards work here. Honey, tell you what...let's take a drive and let me buy you an
ice cream may work....placate the anger to get the bottom out of the house. Rebecca laughs.
I'm serious. Try the "I am beating your ass for this" and you may have someone totally
blow up on you.
phyn whispers, " Chocolate promises"
Rebecca says: and then everyone gets to hear that s/he is hurt cause after s/he did your colors, bought raw wool...dyed it to best match your eyes, and spun
it, then knitted it into a sweater...was reciprocated with a "But the paddling was your present."
You don't want to air the problem with anyone else. So...chocolate...flowers....a trip to
Bermuda....etc. Get to a place where you can talk. If it is legitimate....
Rebecca gives all tops a valium for this next one: Recognize the issue as being valid...and APOLOGIZE.
If it is not valid, explain your side. and work through it...just like any other
r/ship
Rebecca says: Last major reason for resistance. If it is a lack of confidence on the part of the subbie, find out
what the subbie's fears are. No one wants to look like a complete fool. No one wants to be totally outshined no matter how much into
humiliation they are in. Asking me to run a 100 dash against a college track star....well,
I don't run....and I've never ran....and unless there is an ice cream truck pacing me, I don't plan to start.
Kerr giggles
Annie grins
Rebecca says: This request, needless to say, will not get a high level of compliance from me...even if it would please my master.
For some though...they would not do it at all. First...the top has to be sure that the requests are feasible.
Secondly the top needs to be sure that the bottom knows what to do ...fully and completely...which may mean that s/he needs to break it down
into bite-sized steps for the bottom. Instead of saying prepare hemp rope for me.
S/he may need to say, "Have you prepared hemp rope? No? Okay...first, you will need to get a really big pot...then boil it for at least
40 min....let's go look at it.....okay....now you need to hang it to dry....okay...next...blah blah.,
Everyone wants to be able to serve well...and to do so, the bottom needs to know what you want and how to do it.
and in cases of EXTREME lack of confidence....you will have to babystep them through it.
Lavicka says: along with what you just said... about walking the sub through
it... there are times that the sub knows how to do things that the dom/me doesn't and doesn't realize all the steps involved, thereby insisting on
results long before they're available.. if that makes any sense
Rebecca nods.
Lavicka says: knowing what is involved, or asking, keeps the sub from looking like they're taking longer on purpose
Rebecca says: The top has to be sure the request is feasible. Prepare hemp rope by tonight is not feasible, for example.
Lavicka says: or have the house painted when i get home from work
Rebecca says: On that topic, we have talked a lot about the top has to do this and the top has to do that...but there are things that are the bottom's responsibility. The bottom has to be...and I'm going to borrow Annie's profile here: Be willing to accept the consequences for getting what they say that they want. In other words...if you have said that you wish to serve as a house slave...but you suddenly don't want to scrub that floor....SUCK IT UP, BUTTERCUP! It comes with the price of what you have asked for. Negotiate better next time. ;)
Rebecca says: Secondly...bottoms should not promise what they are unwilling to
provide. Saying, "OH yes...I'd love to tattoo the lyrics of your poem on my ass" then not doing it? Well...um....hmmm...don't say it if you don't mean
it. Because someone somewhere will call you on it.
cerulean says: what if they want to ..think they can..try hard at it..but in the end
aren't able to
Rebecca says: That is different. However, don't say, "Oh, I'd love to be your centerpiece at the
next dinner party." Instead say, "Being the centerpiece really turns me on...and I want to try it...but I'm so afraid that I won't be able to do it."
A good top will take it slowly. Like maybe you will be the centerpiece for the next luncheon....Rebecca winks
Annie says: I've got to admit, though, that I've been surprised sometimes by my own reactions to things I thought would be no problem at all
Rebecca nods. I think we all have. But you also know what I mean. Saying, I want you to carve your name on my back....I dream about
it...blah blah blah...and then saying, "Well...no....I'm not really doing that." It's just a fantasy....etc
Annie nods
cerulean asks: how does one know if a fantasy is something you really want to *do* with out trying it though?
Rebecca says: So do say, "I'm interested...but no experience....I want to try it...but I'm afraid...etc.
cerulean nods
Rebecca says: In other words, the bottom has to communicate their willingness to try it...and any fears.
cerulean sighs softly
Rebecca says: But don't say, "I LOVE IT...I want it....I pray for it..."etc. if you are not willing to even try it....or discuss it.
cerulean nods
Rebecca says: And to continue on Annie's comment.
If you cannot do it...then don't...but please let them know why. I thought I could do it, sir...but suddenly, I just felt like I
was starting to freak out... and be willing to discuss it.
phyn says: I've asked for rehearsals in the past and it worked out well
Rebecca nods to phyn
Rebecca says: Last of all...no one is a mind reader. Truly. It is not fair to expect someone to be. The bottom must be able to state important thoughts, needs, and personal issues.
Lavicka says: just wanted to say... back when you were telling the dom/mes that
it's ok and even *required* to apologize once in awhile... dom/mes that can't take some responsibility for their own actions
and their own shortcomings are REALLY annoying to us subs. it *isn't* always our problem/fault/failure... please own up to your own
Rebecca says: that works both ways though.
Lavicka says: it does...
Rebecca says: We need to own up to ours too.
Lavicka says: but for the sub who thinks they're always at fault and any problem that comes up is their problem to deal with alone.... sometimes a
dom/me needs to be strong enough to not let that sub take all the blame on themselves
Slacker nods and agrees. He has to deal with that at times.
Lavicka says: i've seen too many subs who hover in the corner and take all the blame, even though everyone around them knows they aren't to blame for the
problem. it's sickening that their dom/me would let them think it's all theirs to deal with
Annie says: this is awfully similar in some ways to what you hear at
a typical supervisor's seminar run by an HR dept...with some variations, of course
Annie grins
Rebecca laughs!
Rebecca says: I give this talk with grad students seeking degrees in leadership...and also to aspiring administrators...
Rebecca laughs at the echo.
Annie nods...I'm not surprised
Rebecca says: But it works sooo well in this culture.
Annie laughs...yup
Rebecca says: Power problems are power problems. And that is a wrap, I think. :)
Morn exclaims: thanks Rebecca!
Annie exclaims: thank you!
Rebecca says to Annie: I also give one on Power...about what exactly is power that one is exchanging. :)
Domaris asks: is that next month?
Rebecca says: anyway...I can give the talk next month.
Please do not cut and paste text, although
you are certainly welcome to link directly to this URL:
http://www.iron-rose.com/IR/docs/badsubs.htm
Feel fee to contact rebecca@iron-rose.com
March 16, 2003