AFTERCARE: 

12/15/1999 with Claudia, after official discussion group with Kristine

Please do not copy or paste.  Links to this URL always welcome.
http://www.iron-rose.com/IR/docs/aftercare2.htm  Feel free to contact kim@iron-rose.com

This discussion group turned into much more! The original discussion group of Aftercare is followed by impromptu discussion of Headspace. Followed by impromptu discussion of Safewords. Followed by Trust/First Meetings.

Claudia says: In the schedule, it says Sub Aftercare... but I think aftercare is important for the dominant too. I'm fairly sure everyone has heard of aftercare at some point in time. As the name implies, it occurs at the end of the scene, when you are returning to reality. It is a great time to cuddle and snuggle, and is often a great time for bonding between the dom and sub. It is a very important process.... it allows for the sub and dom to share feelings of being wanted, loved, needed, etc. Also... if the dom packs up and leaves immediately following the scene, it can leave the sub feeling confused...and can lead to very negative emotions, such as feeling that s/he did something wrong, or was not attractive, or did not please the dom, and is a bad sub.. you name it. On the other hand, the dominant can have similar feelings if the sub gets dressed and leaves right after the scene. Claudia grins, Dom/mes need to know that the sub had a great time and likes them also. I think sometimes, that aspect gets lost... because everyone is worried about the sub’s frame of mind, the sub’s well-being. Not that those aren't important or anything <g> just dont forget about the dominant.

Kristine asks: what exactly does aftercare involve? I've heard it but not been too sure.. just snuggling?

Claudia says: Aftercare involves whatever works for the parties involved. The most important thing to remember, is to be there physically for each other. For some, cuddling and stuff is wonderful... For others, they don’t want to be cuddled afterwards, they don’t necessarily want to be left alone, but just to know that the dominant is nearby and available. What aftercare does NOT involve, is discussing what went wrong during the scene. It’s a great time to praise each other on what happened, and talk about what went right. But, I believe both parties are emotionally fragile during this time. Criticism can hurt A LOT. Even if phrased properly, it can make the one being criticized feel inadequate.

Kristine says: this is just my experience.. but when a scene goes wrong for me, talkin' about it very soon after is important

Claudia nods... it is important to talk about it as soon as possible after the scene. But, if the sub is off in subs space somewhere.. and the dominant starts talking about things that didn't work right it’s very easy for the sub to take that personally. When it really wasn't anything the sub DID, it just didn't work... same is true for the Dom... if the dom is off in Tops space... and the sub starts saying, well, I didn't like a, b and c... its easy for the dom to think, well gee... I guess I’m not really a good dom after all.

taken says: I think the appropriate time for discussing what didn't go
well/what needs improvement would be a good thing to include in negotiations. Before the scene, sit down and say, "If something doesn't go well, do we want to talk about it right away afterwards, or wait a few hours or a day?"

Claudia says: That is a good idea.

Kristine says: The only time I need to discuss what goes wrong, right after the scene that went wrong.

Dmaster says: During the aftercare, I like to know what went wrong, with a scene, as well as what went right, while its fresh in the mind, to work on the following time and make it even better.

Claudia says: For me, you gotta wait a few hours before you start discussing what went wrong, because I’m not thinking in those terms after a good scene. I’m thinking... wow, look at all the pretty colors.

Claudia says: now, if its a BAD scene all around, and E safeword, yes, its a good idea to talk right away.

Aphrodite asks: Claudia, you threw me for a loop back there. I’ve never have heard of Top-Space...what's that?
Claudia says: It’s a head space that tops go into during a scene.

taken says: In subspace, a lot of subs feel dreamy and disconnected,
floating... in top-space, a lot of Doms experience this ultra-awareness of everything... very heightened and ultra-clear sensory perception. Everything is very clear, and thoughts are very sharp and quick.

Flame says: Aftercare for me is a transition from my mental state to the rational world and not a time i can engage in rational discussion

Claudia says: Aftercare is also important because it gives both parties the chance to return to normal. Without it, sometimes, the sub will just stay in la-la land. Walking around the streets in subs_space is probably not a good thing

brajoll says: why not what happens there
Viking says: for brajoll subs left in that state are very vulnerable and unfortunately can become victims of unscrupulous Dom/me
Claudia says: hell, they can become victims of an unscrupulous sales man
Samantha says: I don’t think its vulnerable subs.. it CAN be, but walking around the streets in headspace. I mean..in Walmart..i won't end up on my knees being whipped. I think its more of the 'crashing' problem. You have to come DOWN at some time. If it’s not done correctly then things can be worse when the sub/top does come down. Like a caffeine high. When it’s gone you just fall in bed more tired than before. After a mountain there’s a valley. You have to come down at some point.

Claudia says: Actually, sometimes, it can be bad when the sub/top comes down, even if the aftercare was done correctly.

Flame says: In deep sub space a person can be as open to suggestion as if they are in a deep hypnotic trance.
Claudia nods.

TheMaxx asks: What if you aren't going to turn them loose, but keep them around for the night? Perhaps then it might be desirable to leave them in sub-space?
Claudia says: If that’s what you want, great. Then aftercare would occur the next morning, as that would be when the scene was over. There is no time limit on how long the scene can be... as long as you take the time to care for your sub when its over.

Samantha says: If a submissive goes that deeply into subs space, then it;s the subs responsibility to let them KNOW that. Dominants are not mind readers.
Claudia says: Exactly... during negotiation, the sub and dom/me should discuss those things.

Claudia says: Both parties are responsible for what happens in ftercare. It is the Dominant’s responsibility to see to the emotional well-being of the submissive, but the submissive has a responsibility to let the dom know what her reactions will be. As far as she KNOWS what they will be. Sometimes surprises happen. All the negotiating in the world can’t prepare you for them. Whether it be a surprise for the dom, or the sub... both have to be willing to roll with the punches.

Claudia says: Along the lines of surprises. The sub does need to let the dom/me know, when they are doing something new, that the arranged activity IS new to her... so the dom/me will be aware that she has never done that before, and can be prepared for whatever happens. One ast thing. Sometimes, everything can go right, the scene can flow beautifully, aftercare is great... the sub comes out of subs space, but the sub can still crash... unexpectedly...even though everyone thought everything was great. This falls under the category of surprises, by the way <winks>. It is not the result of anyone doing anything wrong... it just happens sometimes. Partly because many people, myself included, don't think of the endorphin high that comes with some scenes. I can be high as a kite on endorphins, and no where near subs_space... So I come out of subs_space, but still have lovely chemicals in my blood <grins>. This too is something that should be addressed in negotiation. Not just the emotional state of mind, but also the physical reactions to the scene are important aspects to consider afterwards.

Kristine asks: Claudia, can you give us some tips to take care of stuff like this - the endorphins and aftercare?
Claudia says: The best thing I can say... is to give the sub time. There is no shot or something you can give the sub to make the endorphins go away after the scene.

taken laughs... when I'm on an endorphin high, I can get an incredible amount of cleaning done ;)

Claudia says: Often, as long as the sub knows what to expect when she comes off the high s/he should be ok afterwards. Claudia grins at taken. Again, sometimes you have a different reaction to the high, and may think you know what to expect, but something different happens... again, not a result of anyone doing anything wrong... its a learning experience.

shivan says: what can you suggest for the sub who for whatever reason does get "abandoned" by the dom?
Claudia says: In my opinion it is important for the sub to have a support person... that is, someone within the scene, who is willing to be available in those circumstances, that the sub can easily contact.
If you have a friend in the scene, and find yourself left, you should be able to call them, and contact them.

Elianne says: If you are with a dom who just walks off after a scene you may want to negotiate or leave.

Kristine says: One quick tip I've heard talked about is having lotion available after spanking/percussion scenes. Small things like that, that give you something to do while cuddling & snuggling, but also provide physical care, I think work great for aftercare - I was wondering if people had others.

Elianne says: Astringent helps for keeping welts infection free :)

taken says: This happened to me once (fortunately, only once)... and it was quite late... I was too afraid to call up my friends... and so I sat down and wrote out all the things that I would like to be hearing at that moment from somebody who was responsible for caring for me. Then I sat down and read it out loud to myself. It helped me focus a little, and gave me time to let the endorphins wear down.

Samantha says: If its not a dom/me that you know that well, then a first rule of safety is ALWAYS have a contact person.
Claudia says: It should be discussed before hand what the aftercare is going to be.

Viking says: I have found often that the best thing is just to hold the sub and talk to them not as a sub but use their name.
Flame says: anytime I scene I set up a safe call system so if he leaves I have someone who will be there.
Elianne says: sometimes just curling up at the Dom's feet feels good after a scene. If he is too tired to snuggle, at least you feel safe and can just snooze while you come down

Kristine asks: what did you think about Topspace, Viking?
Viking says: I find it exhilarating when I am in it ....but I also worry about it
Kristine asks: worry in what way? And, do you do anything special to come down from it?
Viking says: generally I tend to cuddle with dani. I need the physical contact and I seem only to go into topspace when scening rl.

Kristine asks: so what do you do for online? Do you go into topspace online, anyone?
Dmaster says: I can to into topspace, online, depending on the person,
intensity, and situation
Claudia has gone into subspace online
Viking says: the reason I worry is that for me it is similar to how I use to get when I fought....then I could put my hand through a brick wall and not notice. On line I can't get that deep.
Kristine nodsnods.. I can see why

Dmaster says: coming out of topspace, I want to sit and relax with the sub, discuss the good, the anxieties if any, etc.

Kristine has a real hard time getting to subspace online, and if I was in topspace I didn't notice <G>.

Viking says: when dani and I did scene online I would call or she would and talk to come out of subspace and relax.

Dmaster says: mentioned earier.. If something wasn't all that great for the sub, particularly one I care for, I want to know as soon as they wish to discuss it. If it’s during the comedown, that's great. I don't have a too fragile of an ego.

Kristine normally most wants to discuss when a scene went wrong. Kristine usually prefers to talk if she's at all able to communicate :)

Viking says: I do too...if it went well then I just relax..... dani likes to come out first .....even if a bad scene....varies from sub to sub, Dom to Dom.
Kristine says: That's why talking is good, cuz you can share what other people do, find out different things, maybe get tips. How did you notice the first time you were in topspace, is something I wanna know. Was it *that* noticeable a difference?

Dmaster says: oh man. Everything else in the room became a literal blur. Focused totally on the sub. The reactions. Responses. The slightest body language. All other sound seemed to drift away.
Kristine says: it sounds kinda cool, actually - but scary too, if you didn't know what it was
Dmaster says: funny, how loud one's breathing can seem at times.

Viking says: for me it became clarity of everything the subs breathing the sounds in the room, the touch and feel of the skin the restraints

Dmaster says: its a gradual build up, like everything slowly focuses down to the sub. If it were sudden, kris, yes, could be scary.

Kristine says: there isn't as much talk about topspace - lots on subspace.

Dmaster says: the first time, I went into topspace, I wasn't really
prepared.
Kristine nods.. yeah, I have seen so little mentioned - I'd think this catches some people by surprise.
Dmaster says: And yet, when I sensed what was happening, it seemed totally natural. I hadn't read anything on it, nor heard any other's views on it.
Viking says: Yes the same with me

Viking says: I had a friend who had tried to describe it too me but her experiences were different. What happened to her and she was a very experienced Domme. For her she became focussed only on the feel of the cane in her hand and how it felt as she caned her sub.
Kristine asks: oh weird Vik - not focused on the sub?
Viking says: No.

Rebecca says: I think everyone has a different experience with it. Different people strive and seek different things from bdsm and the many aspects with it.

Kristine nods.. that's why we're talkin - to find out each other's experience.. wanna share yours, Rebecca?

Rebecca says: I started as a fairly dommish switch. At the time, I think I was more or less seeking exploration and the powerful feeling that playing on top gave to me. Over time, that need changed dramatically. I get different feelings depending on the type of scene, the mood, the tone, etc. Underlying, and this may seem strange for some, I find I get an eminence amount of freedom from serving Prophet. I'm in control all the time at work. Subbing is mentally freeing for me.

Dmaster says: it is that way with a lot of people, it seems, rebecca

Rebecca says: The endorphine rush and the pleasure of pleasing someone else just ices my experience. I find many people who say it really mean they simply don't like to put thought into the scene. I put a lot of thought in to my interactions with Prophet.

Kristine asks: when you're subbing, Rebecca? Or apart from the actual scene?
Rebecca says: Exactly. I don't top or domme anymore, Kristine. At home, I tend to be in "sub" role all the time. Prophet and I have lived together for over two years now. But the power exchange is separate from a scene. One to me is a mindset. The other is an activity. The role doesn't carry over to my job or when interacting with vanilla or scene unaware friends, or family. That was negotiated.

Lacy says: I've been "exploring" for a little less than 4 months. So far, it seems everything is new.

Kristine says: well, okay, so those with experience... How about some tips on how to recognize subspace? what do your subs DO or act like? Or if you're a sub, how does it feel?

Dmaster says: I've noticed it first come apparent in the eyes, and the slower deep breathing. The face slowly loses all expression and takes on a somber tone. And then its like the entire body relaxes, as if yielding to the inner desires, so to speak,until they are addressed, directly, and they stiffen.

Kristine asks: I've heard subspace tends to make communication harder for subs - do you find that to be true, Dm?
Dmaster says: as far as the sub's mental state, during subspace, it was never really talked about. Verbal communication, yes.. and I think its due to the sub's focus. Sometimes hard to get an audible response :)

Kristine says: the closest I've gotten online, it gets hard for me to talk.. I have to actually think about what I'm typing, for instance, or every other letter is a typo. Takes focus to be able to do simple stuff, but I can still do just as well - just takes more effort.

DISCUSSION OF SAFEWORDS:

Lacy asks: one thing... I have heard it said that a sub is expected to use her safeword if the scene takes a bad turn. I haven't been in that situation yet, but part of me feels like I am failing my Master if I do that. How does one find a balance?

Kristine hmmms... I have safeworded before, Lacy
Dmaster says: you would fail your Master if you didn't use the safeword, is my feeling
Kristine nods and agrees with Dmaster - see, they don't know what you're feeling. Or how you're thinking - whatever the problem is.
Viking says: I agree with Dm

Dmaster says: I like 2 safe words like the traffic light system. Yellow or another word signifying that something is approaching the red, and its time to think about not going much further
Kristine says: you have to communicate it somehow, and in some situations, a safeword is the only thing you have
Viking says: you master wants you to be and feel safe
Kristine says: sometimes, when scenes go bad, you can't really verbalize "this isn't working for me because I feel like I'm suffocating here" - you maybe are feeling panicked and just safe out. It's like a shortcut communication. If your dom knows your limits, he'll have an idea of *why* it's a yellow - or he'll ask.

Dmaster says: It’ss important to know the dom's limits. Contrary to popular believe, some have them.

Kristine has yellow lighted before - I much prefer that to a "stop" safeword.
Dmaster grins. Yellow doesn't disrupt as a red would. Afterwards, it can be discussed why the yellow was used.

Kristine says: I know that's not terribly pc to say <G>. For me, safewords work, cuz when a scene is going wrong, I get mad. When I'm mad, I don't communicate well. I can get out a code - but I can't communicate very clearly what's wrong, just that, hey, get OFF me now, buddie, or you won't be able to <G>. Kristine chuckles. Can't say that to a dom ;) Kristine says: for other people, safewords work for other reasons.

Dmaster asks: how so, kris?
Kristine says: well, for people who panic for instance - they might be unable to communicate for other reasons. I think that's the intent of the safeword. When you get surprised by something, and you have a hard time talking, to tell your partner what's up. Safeword means "stop right now!" If something is wrong - that's very important.

Viking says: and if the sub is going to bound and gagged then some other clear signal should be arranged
Kristine nods.. oh yeah - with gags it's even more important. See, the thing about subbing is you're both working together. If you look at it that way - it's not one of you failing the other if a safeword is used.

Dmaster says: with gags, it should be very clear, I think, what will happen in a scene, and to exactly what extent the scene will go.
Kristine says: it's that something is wrong and you are communicating that... cuz you're no longer *together*.

Cheyain asks: Anyone mentioned with the gag, something along the lines of placing a ball in the subs hand to drop for a safe word substitute? Or some such object?

Dmaster says: that would work, Cheyain, or perhaps something that'd make a bit of noise when it hit the floor
Kristine nods... something that clangs can be better - yeah

Kristine coughs.. there are some situations where the dom/me might not see just at first that it was dropped, and you'd want the extra assurance of a sound cue as well.

BACK TO HEADSPACE:

Kristine chuckles.. we were mostly talking about headspace - topspace and subspace.
Dmaster says: the space thing is the mind set that a dom or sub enters during a scene.
Kristine says: sometimes enters, not always.

Kristine says: some people have never experienced that kind of "altered state." Subspace can be a disconnected kind of feeling.
Viking says: yes and sometimes not thinking is part of it
Dmaster says: an emotional state
Kristine nods
Nilty nods to kristine
Cheyain says: Maybe this will help: When you are truly "focused" on the scene in question, to the exclusion of all else the mind goes into a "trance-like" state.
Kristine says: if a scene makes you feel different than you ordinarily would - especially different than during "vanilla" sex, that's probably your version of it
Kristine thinks that's fair to say <G> anyone disagree with me?
tigeress says: it is like my mind goes somewhere else.. and everything around me never exists.
Kristine nods
Cheyain says: I experienced something like a "floating" feeling.
Kristine nods.. floating and flying are two words that come up a lot
Cheyain says to Nilty: For me it was a total trust that the Dom would take care of me and see to it I didn't get hurt.
Kristine smiles. Kristine loves that feeling.
Viking says: I think that is the key .... the feeling of trust
Cheyain says: A truly unique and very special feeling for sure.
Dmaster says: for me, it is trust from both sides

TRUST/FIRST MEETINGS:

Dmaster says: the sub's trust for the dom, the dom's trust that the sub will use the caution safeword.
Cheyain says: Trust comes with time and getting to know your Dom.
Viking says: and the trust helps to move both to the respective spaces.
Kristine says: it's okay to start with small scenes, and it's better if they don't push your limits.

Cheyain says: I am a Switch. I have both Dom and sub natures that war against each other at times...but it also give me a unique perspective on each one's trust of the other.

Saxy says: I think that if you trust your Dom/me, they know what your limits really are, even if you say you want to trust with "everything."
Kristine had a very hard time trusting in the beginning.
Dmaster says: trust has to be earned.

Kristine stresses what Dmaster said, jumping up and down to emphasize. Earn earn earn it. If the dom doesn't wanna earn it - tough! You are trusting them with yourself. It's okay to be cautious. To need time to get used to it all.
Viking says: everything about D/s is trust and as such should not be rushed into.
Dmaster says: if you are cautious, you will gain the respect of a dom

Cheyain says: Most people RUSH into the Life, with no thought of what it really means and they get lost. Take as much time as Y/you need.
Lacy says: just that trust being earned is something I stressed very strongly before agreeing to submit to Master
Saxy says: I feel like the aspect of BDSM that keeps people involved in the community is the mental part, not the physical.
Viking says: the bond between a sub and Dom is primarily mental not physical

Kristine says: a real common example, for "pain," is a masochist into "pain" is being flogged heavily ... because of the endorphins that feels like pleasure... yet, that masochist will sometimes stop a scene if the bondage gets uncomfortable or is too tight - it feels like it "hurts." Kristine chuckles.. now, slight pressure around your wrist and a heavy flogging are no where near the same feeling! Even if you've never experienced, it's not hard to understand. Yet, it is a great illustration for me of the difference.

Saxy exclaims: I cry when I get a papercut, but if you hit me with a cat I'm yours!
Cheyain says: It still comes back to the trust issue...you have to trust the Dom/me to KNOW the subs limits and follow them.
Kristine says: you give a little trust, and it's proven, then you give a little more. Talk a lot, communicate.... and realize that some things will just feel different when you're excited - things that don't *sound* all that great. You do them when you're aroused and it's like "wow!".
Cheyain says: Setting up the scene in advance helps too. As well as the going over it once the scene is complete.
tigeress says: BLUSHES

tigeress asks: what i want to know is.. Would a dom ever get in his head a power trip thing? i mean would the safe word NOT work?

Saxy says to tigeress: That's where trust comes in.
Kristine nods... exactly.... and don't be afraid to ASK the dom. I have before
tigeress says: but i mean I trust this person... but then the safe word NOT work... what then
Kristine asks: if your safeword doesn't work?
Saxy says to tigeress: I don't EVER play with someone I don't know for a long time.
Kristine says: oh believe me - you won't trust that person again
Kristine nodsnodsnods with Saxy. That's one way <G>
tigeress says: course i wouldn't trust them again// but that doesn't help the situation that would be at hand/
Cheyain says: I agree with Saxy, anyone worth scening with is someone that takes their time getting to know me.
Kristine says: that's why you set up a safety net and negotiate CAREFULLY. And you KNOW the person over time.
Cheyain says: Dom or sub either way.

Kristine says: how knowledgeable is the person, is sometimes a good indicator. If you know people they know. If they keep their word to you in other areas. For instance - if they say "I'll meet ya here at this time" then don't show - that's a small thing, but it can be important, cuz it shows respect for you.


Cheyain says: There is one thing that hasn't been mentioned here. That being the first time you meet for real...have someone you trust waiting for a phone call from you. If they do not hear from you by a certain time then they are instructed to call the Police.

Kristine says: You don't wanna jump into that first meeting, either. Especially when you're new.
Dmaster says: or meet with other friends
Cheyain says: If you are commfy, the call can have a "secret" code word that only you and that person know about. Make that word something that would not be suspected. Something like: "That picture really was fasinating." or "That picture was really ugly" The last word being the "key" word. Been there, done that and things worked out well for me. :-}