3/29/02 03/29 7:00 PM Can you have BDSm without sex? Is sex required to have a scene with someone? Or can exchange of power in itself be as powerful and seductive without orgasms and sex included? Come and join us for a very informal exchange of views on this topic and share your experiences or opinions with other IR users! Moderator: Elianne You are in: Demo_room Although there is no sales counter, the items on display in this room are available for your use. An assortment of whips, crops, paddles, clamps, plugs, restraints, blindfolds...oh we could go on and on but we'll allow your eyes to feast on the wide variety. Demonstrations on the equipment and a variety of techniques are held here on a slightly raised platform in the center of the room. An entire section is devoted to resource materials. As you wander, you notice a discreet sign on the wall that says: "Type .show schedule for discussions and demonstrations". Topic: * Items: None You can see: Skittles is not evil just misunderstood She is sitting in Elianne's lap. Kerr "Forever Knight" on SciFi Ch! candie ... Elianne is finally well again!!! Zoom around the world. Gaston Black & White = Timewaster Elianne says: yey Skittles snuggles into Elianne's lap. Skittles has grasshopper cookies Zoom takes a seat in a nice comfy chair Elianne says: welcome :) Skittles says: and chcolate covered ghrams and fudge striped shortbread Skittles says: ewww it's reduced fat Skittles purrs and munches fudge covered ghram crackers Skittles says: chocolate my catnip candie says: I ate a chocolate bar yesterday.. made myself sick candie says: ick candie says: never thought I'd hate a snickers bar Elianne chuckles candie says: hi Gaston :) Elianne says: Welcome, Gaston Gaston says: heya, Elianne. Gaston huggles up candie Elianne asks: can anyone log this thing? Elianne grins. Hi, Kerr :) Kerr starts the log for Elianne Elianne says: thanks for bringing your ass in here 0:) Elianne grins candie chuckles Kerr grins .. Sure thing. Elianne exclaims: ok Kerr, in a few minutes! candie kneels next to Gaston. Elianne says: thanks :) Elianne asks: would anyone mind if we started 2 minutes early? Cowlman wanders in. candie says: nope Elianne says: ok :) Cowlman says: if we don't,it might be too late to do that.:) Gaston strokes candie's hair. Elianne exclaims: Welcome to another IR discussion group! It is good to see all of you here. Kerr smiles Elianne smiles Zoom smiles and nods candie smiles softly Skittles says: 'nope Elianne asks: I would like to stress that there is no " right" answer to tonight's topic, I will state my own experiences and opinions, and then I woudl like for you all to discuss freely, just make sure you raise your hand and take turns. Fair? Kerr says: Sure :) Elianne says: oh and I am blunt :) Elianne says: ok here goes. Elianne says: My BDSm Training was non sexual. That is, it centered around inner growth, physical sensations, the good old fashioned reward system, and alot of studying. Elianne says: it was very erotic, and I had the most intense physical sensations of my life eing whipped and clamped etc... Elianne says: but apart from orgasm control, there was no orgasmic activity in it for me Elianne says: not because I was denied it Elianne says: but because I saw it as a distraction, as not necessary for ME Elianne says: I thrived on total submission, on losing myself to service, leaving behind my self centeredness Elianne says: and doing for someone else Elianne exclaims: I was happy! Elianne says: I have since discovered that pain can enhance sexual pleasure, but it is still just one element of my BDSm experiences, and not by far the biggest one. Elianne exclaims: I thought everyone was like that!! Elianne chuckles amara wanders in. Elianne says: then I discovered that for some, the sexuality is the major focal point.. Elianne says: or their strongest motivator Elianne says: and it intrigues me beyond words Elianne says: I read it on books, I see it discussed here on IR Elianne exclaims: and at times I think Horny Net Geeks give it a bad name! Skittles offers out cookies Elianne asks: When sex is the object, the end all of the entire encounter, is it still BDSM, or a kinky sex thing? Cowlman has a Q when Elianne is ready Elianne says: so please..let me hear from all of you Elianne says: go, Cowlman Cowlman asks: You tell of this training you received,and kept orgasm out of...did you get it from someone with whom you had a sexual or romantic relationship with otherwise,or were you and the trainer "all business"? Skittles says: the S in BDSM doesn't stand for sex Kerr has a comment.. Cowlman knows that,Skittles... Skittles says: I know Cowlman Skittles snuggles him Elianne says: Excelent question Cowlman. I was given into Training from my master to his best friend, a very experienced Dominant, she had been a pro, and she lives the lifestyle 24/7. I did not know her other than from online, and she and I were not romantically engaged Skittles feeds Cowlman a cookie Cowlman asks: hmmm...you were mastered but untrained? Elianne says: of course I grew to love her as I think anyone wouldl their Trainer, someone who exposes you to all these new delights Elianne says: my master sent me to IR for learning. I was here for almost 2 years just learning before I went into Training and Ownership Elianne says: so my owned status and Training correlated. Excellent question Cowlman asks: You are referring to online training then?...or offline too? Elianne asks: any other questions or comments or opinions? Elianne says: ah my Training was 24/7 real life Elianne says: but preceeded by IR learning Cowlman asks: 24/7 meaning you lived with the trainer until she sent you back to your master? Elianne says: yes, that is correct Caitlyn wanders in. Elianne says: and in doing so I served her as she saw fit, even in Training new slaves or taunting male slaves and such. Elianne says: still it was not about the sex for me, no Cowlman asks: how long did you live with her? Elianne asks: is this question to illuminate the sex vs. no sex in BDSm topic Cowlman? Elianne says: I would liek to get back on the topic if possible * smile* Elianne asks: maybe you people in here have experiences you can share, or a conflicting opinion?? Cowlman says: I am intrigued by the issues of non-owner trainers,and the entanglements and schedulings can then arise...certainly seeing myself in the owner role I would prefer that the trainee not become a lover of the trainer.:) Heleva wanders in. Kerr says: Just that BDSM is a spectrum rather than a single definable situation. Everyone is different and has different requirements for their relationships. Some people may simply look for kinky sex, some may prefer the D/s aspect. Elianne says: I am doing a discussion group on Training vs. no Training in April Cowlman :) Zoom just listens Elianne nods, listening candie says: kinky sex is fun.. a LOT of fun.. but it gets empty after awhile, doesn't mean anything without the service.. imo Elianne says: I agree, Kerr. And like I said, just because it is that way for ME....does nto mean that is " the way" :0 Elianne asks: can you expand on that Candie?? candie says: umm Kim wanders in. Cowlman can see a trained sub who submits to many but SEXUALLY serves only her owner. Claudia wanders in. candie says: you can have kinky sex with anyone.. even a nilla parter if they're up for it.. but it doesn't mean anything if you don't care enough to do things for the person you're with Elianne exclaims: thank you Candie, interesting viewpoint! Elianne asks: Cowlman, can you see yourself having a non sexual BDSm relationship? Gaston smiles at candie. Elianne smiles Cowlman smiles and ponders...it would seem incomplete if the submissive drew the line at sex...of course,if a partner had sexual dysfunction,I would not want to see that kill the relationship. Elianne asks: Do you agree with Kerr who said there are all aspects? :) Elianne asks: ah, now...to look at the other side of it.. what makes it BDSm to you and not just sex? Cowlman says: well,the issue of obedience and rules and discipline and ritual. Elianne asks: And can you see it as BDSm still if you have all that but no sex? Elianne opens the floor to questions and comments from anyone Cowlman says: It depends on why it has no sex in it. Elianne says: if your submissive is not very sexually inclined... Kim says: I typically have BDSM without sex. Caitlyn blinks. Elianne nods, can you expand on that Kim? Cowlman offers Caitlyn eyedrops Caitlyn says: sometimes I -prefer- BDSM without sex. Elianne nods, notes Caitlyn's response Kim says: I have BDSM with many many people. Claudia says: sometimes sex can just ruin a whole scene. Kim says: I play wiht lots of people. That's fun for me. Elianne asks: in what way Claudia? Elianne smiles to Kim Kim says: And I train many people. That in itself is a kink of mine. Kim says: But I don't have to have sex with them for it to be fulfilling. Cowlman says: I would expect that the BDSM can manifest itself 24 hours of every day,the sex part few hours of some days. Heleva asks: ? Elianne says: good point, Cowlman. I think some fiction books represent BDSm as a 24/7 sexual orgy Elianne asks: yes, Heleva?? Kim says: I see a ton of people at BR having BDSM without "sex" (course, how you define sex gets tricky too) in the dungeon. Looks to me like they're having a grand time. Gaston says: probably sounds like it, too. Heleva says: I also thought that controling ones sexual urges where a major part of the training so that when and if sex were to be a part of the scene it would be more meaningful Kim nods to Heleva. "Point." Elianne says: exactly, Kim. BDSm has to may elements, like I said, to me sex is only a part of it all. Claudia says: sometimes, hrm... depends on the type of scene. but sometimes you want to wallow in your own special happy place, and adding sex just becomes an overload of sensations. which is bad. Elianne exclaims: yes Heleva! Heleva nods Claudia says: then you have that sour note at the end of a scene, which takes away from whatever good has happened. hence, ruining your view of the scene. Kim asks: Ok, am I the ONLY one who cums just from scening?? Heleva says: No Kim Elianne asks: does anyone want to speak up on behalf of sex in BDSM? So far we agree ti CAn be great or disrupting or even jsut a small aprt Caitlyn grins at Kim. no. Kim says: Well there ya go. Elianne laughs Claudia grins. nope. Elianne says: excellent point, define " sex" Elianne says: flogging someone gets me wet I know Heleva says: its jsut that holding back sometimes and not cumming does amke some scenes differnt Caitlyn says: but it's a different kind of orgasm Elianne nodnods! Elianne says: promising sexual release can keep a submissive on his toes and willing to do alot... Elianne exclaims: but at times a sub might loose all interest once he is spent! Claudia says: it's almost a better orgasm. Claudia says: in my opinion. Cowlman asks: Now how does one categorize directed masturbation?...it's something that is part of the domination dynamic but is not conducted between the partners itself. Elianne says: depends, Cowlman, if it is part of the scene with orgasm control etc...then it is a part of BDSM, bot the end all and be all of it I think. I could have a man masturbate for 20 minutes but might nto let him orgasm...or I might. If that was all he wanted I would be disappointed and tell him to ask for vanilla sex instead ;) but that is just ME Caitlyn asks: perhaps one categorizes it as "directed masturbation"? Caitlyn sighs and lags. Selaria wanders in. Elianne exclaims: don't get me wrong, I think sex can be great in BDSM! Kim says: Laura says that a college professor of hers once defined it as "anything that increases the potential for orgasm" Elianne says: well put, or well quoted,Kim Kim says: by that definition, BDSM is always sex for me. Caitlyn exits quietly. Elianne nods! Kim says: that's not how the general public thinks about it though. Elianne says: indeed Cowlman asks: If,for example,I want a sub to be playing with herself whenever she talks to me,or I will ignore what she says...does it count as sex in the relationship? Gaston ponders that definition. Caitlyn wanders in. candie likes that definition Elianne says: which is when we get HNG's in here soliciting a quikie ..talk dirty to me so I can cum now incident thing Kim says: My morning coffee wakes me up and increases the potential for me to orgasm. But I don't htink anyone would imply I'm having "sex" with a co-worker who brings me coffee. Elianne asks: does anyone want to respond to Cowlman? Selaria says: good, cause that sincerely changes the dynamics of where I work ;) Selaria says: I would say yes, Elianne Elianne chuckles to Kim Elianne says: HNG= Horny Net Geeks Elianne says: thank you Heleva Heleva smiles at Eli Elianne says: I get very put off when someone does that to me and calls it being into BDSM Caitlyn says: I'd say no but that's just me. it's not sex. Elianne smiles to Heleva Elianne says: Cowlman, it is what you and yoru partner choose to make it I think Selaria says: sex with yourself, is still sex. Elianne says: it can be excellent powerplay or roleplay Elianne nods Elianne says: good point as well Selaria Heleva likes the power/rolepaly Selaria says: and having sex, with yourself, even if directed by another, is sex, in that particular moment, with that partner. Selaria says: at least that thought makes sense in my head. Elianne says: good point Selaria Kim says: It's very interesting to speak with people who were in the leather community in the 70's... Selaria can make those at times. Kim says: when sex was an *expected* component. Caitlyn says: it makes sense Sel but something about it strikes me as "off" in the sex department. Elianne listens to Kim Cowlman asks: how about having her wear a buttplug all the time?...does that count as a sex act between us even if I'm on another continent?:) Selaria says to Caitlyn: is it because there is no "penetration" ? Gaston blinks and listens to Kim. Kim says: But a person had to work VERY hard to "find" the leather community. It was secretive. You had to be pretty desperate and frantic to find like-minded people to get it. Kim says: Then there's the 80's (enter me) when sex was a potential thing... Gaston asks: would there be a difference in sex in a D/s perspective and sex in an S&M perspective? Caitlyn turns her attention to Kim. Kim says: Then there was the 90's (enter cyber more strongly) when people separated it entirely Selaria says to Cowlman: it's still directed SEX, what makes using a butt plug any different than her hand Kim says: sanitizing it if you will...as if those who HAD sex with their partners were someone less authentic than those who didn't... Heleva says: You can ahve penetration without orgasm though Heleva says: both male and female Selaria exclaims: sex != orgasm Kim says: and now here we are... And the biggest difference is, we have the sexual predators who have zero interest in BDSM but call it BDSM Kim says: because we are so much easier to find. Heleva says: sex does nto equal penetration though Cowlman nods to Heleva...if she's wearing the buttplug all day she's penetrated all day,but not at orgasm all day Kim says: I think a culture shift is a necessity for the leather community's survival. Elianne says: ok, we have 3 different threads going on right now... Heleva says: sorry Eli Kim shuts up so she can hear Cowlman's intimate details. Selaria chuckles Elianne asks: can I ask for us all to focus for a moment and comment on Kim's statement, then I will take Gaston;s question? Elianne asks: I think we have answered Cowlman, right ?:) Selaria says to Kim: what kind of "culture" shift? Selaria tilts her head Elianne asks: I think AIDS influenced that shift Kim. But let us get to Gaston first? Elianne says: or first Selaria * laughs* Elianne says: Kim, Selaria had a question :) Kim says: Any time a community becomes easier to find, you have more and more people who think they qualify. Selaria says: true Kim says: That's a great thing. Welcome arms. Kim says: But let's be honest, it dilutes the core. Gaston nods. Kim says: ANY community, not just leather. Caitlyn says: the "one bad apple" syndrome Elianne asks: did that answer yoru question, Selaria? Selaria says: indirectly, yup :) Kim says: And eventually...you have people who pretend to be what they know they're not, to get something they think the group can provide. Selaria asks: but the shift isn't to go back into hiding is it? Kim says to Selaria: Mmm. Rhea wanders in. Gaston says: I think some parts might. Elianne asks: ok, can we go to Gaston's excellent question now? Kim says: We do. Kim turns her attention to Gaston and smiles. Elianne asks: sex in D/s vs. sex in SM? A broker offers Selaria a tip on a closetmaking IPP Heleva says: I would thinki those that are pretenders generally leave after a certain period Gaston says: Or at least have stricter "entrance qualifications." Selaria asks: eh? Elianne says: yes Heleva, if they only seex sex, they will I think. Kim says: there are groups within groups, that's the next evolution and where we're headed now. You can get "in" but you can't get "IN" as easily today as you could 4 years ago. Elianne says: Gaston asks: would there be a difference in sex in a D/s perspective and sex in Elianne asks: an S&M perspective? Heleva nods Selaria says: uhm Cowlman says: You certainly can't expect to walk into a club and have sex with people as soon as you meet them...whether spanking them should be easier than that,I think few would argue it should be that easy Heleva nods Heleva says: I observe quite a bit in nwe groups without participating Heleva says: new I mean Elianne asks: Kim or anyone, can I ask, within the harder to reach leather groups, is there a difference in sex within D/s as opposed to SM? Skittles wanders in. Skittles snuggles into Heleva's lap. Selaria says: I personally think that there is less sex, in SM. Selaria says: in my own little box (no pun intended) Elianne asks: because it is more sensation oriented, Selaria? Skittles waves and mubles hi arround a mouthful of cookies Kim spreads her hands. "I hate to sound ignorant, but I've never found a difference in B/d and Sm groups, except for "spanking only" groups." Elianne chuckles Selaria says: I know if I go all out in a deep pain receptive mood, I don't want sex, for me it ruins the rush or euphoria Selaria says: again, this is totally me Kim exclaims: interesting! Elianne says: I suppose the Domination and submission factor is very much present in Sadiasm and Masochism unless you have yoru friends beat you up for the sheer niceness of the sensation Elianne agrees with Selaria, but that is just a personal opinion Caitlyn nods to Selaria. agreed. Selaria nods to Elianne, concerning your comment - a lot of those that go for the sheer sensation, are usually, are in many cases bottoming only Selaria says: not usually a submissive Gaston thinks sex can be a good--even integral part of certain D/s scenes--rape scenes, for example. And sex can just come out of S&M scenes... Elianne asks: and that was the point I made originally, for those who missed my intro..sex can " take away" from the sensation of pain and/or submission...yes? no? Elianne nods to Selaria Caitlyn says: yes Claudia says: If I'm in a certain role.. sex just doesn't work out for me. it ruins the headspace, and can be downright icky. Elianne says: I know DOminants that love a good flogging Claudia uses highly technical terms. Caitlyn grins at Eli. so do submissives. ;) Elianne says: interesting point, Gaston Caitlyn thinks how to phrase it. amara exits quietly. Elianne says: yes Caitlyn, it was in response to Selaria :) Cowlman asks: There's three pairings in "BDSM",we're ignoring the third...where does Bondage & Discipline come in? Selaria asks: there's three? Kim says: that would be the BD we talked about. Elianne says: to me, sure, I like orgasming with pain and headspace added to it, but only now and then, because I don;t want to miss out on any part of the rush of subspace by being too aware of physical pleasure Cowlman says: that can easily have no sex in particular scenes,but can cause sexual excitements Gaston says: BD seems the least sexual of them all to me. Mostly because of the discipline. don't see how sex can enter into disciplining someone. Caitlyn says: probably wherever you want it to. Cowlman says: OK...D/s and S&M were mentioned most recently Zoom exits quietly. Kim says: ok I really gotta igall before I go insane. Y'all do what you want. Selaria says: see Gaston, BD is very sexual to me Heleva says: poor Kim Elianne says: some people love to be tied up for 3 hours. Period. no sex. it makes them get off in their own way Selaria nods Gaston nods, listening. Elianne says: is that non sexual BDSM, or just a very different kind of sex Elianne exclaims: to me, if that is yoru kink and it gets you off, cool!!! Elianne says: whatever rocks your boat Gaston gets off on beeping noses. Gaston beeps candie's nose. Elianne laughs softly Selaria exits quietly. Claudia exits quietly. Elianne asks: ok how abou tthis one..if orgasm defines it as sex, what is it when you fuck for 20 minutes but dont cum? Exercise? Heleva says: I have had pleanty of Non sex Bondage scenes Gaston says: I'd say A Whole Lotta Fun. Elianne smiles Caitlyn says: sex Elianne exclaims: gotcha! Gaston says: and an exercise in willpower (for the man) Caitlyn grins. but then I like being contrary. Elianne says: ah see...absence of sex can be extremely erotic BDSM. in Orgasm control and such... Elianne grins at Caitlyn Caitlyn considers. are we confusing the terms "sex" and "sexual"? Heleva nods to Eli Cowlman asks: Can something be erotic and yet not involved with sex? Elianne says: I wonder, in light of Kim's comments earlier, if my BDSM taste would have even been considered BDSM in the 70's Elianne says: yes Caitlyn, we may be Elianne exclaims: great point! Elianne says: there is sexual or sensual and then there is sex as such Elianne says: I think it is extremely sensual to be allowed to worship a bodypart..even a non genital one.. Caitlyn says: and sexual and sensual aren't the same either Gaston nods with Elianne. Elianne grins, go Caitlyn! Elianne asks: ok, any last comments before I officially bow out as Moderator and leave you to chat freely? Caitlyn says: flogging for me at least, is both sexual and sensual. but it is not always sex. Elianne says: good point Caitlyn Elianne asks: any more questions? Comments? Lamentations? Kim exclaims: Thank you Elianne! Heleva claps Caitlyn exclaims: thanks Eli! Elianne exclaims: thank *you*, Kim! Cowlman says: It's certainly possible to be flogged by someone you have no interest in sex with....or flog someone likewise Elianne says: thanks to all of you for comming :) Elianne smiles, that was fun! Kim exits quietly. Cowlman says: I think it would be sexually frustrating to have a live-in platonic sub though. Gaston applauds Elianne. Elianne exits quietly. Gaston exits quietly. candie stands and stretches. candie exits quietly.